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Original Registration / Identity And Sva?


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#1 SAD_Man

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 02:09 PM

Hi there,

I have searched for 'sva', 'registration', 'identity' etc... but couldn't find an answer to my question

I know this subject / type of question has been discussed plenty of times so I will try and make my question very specific

"Has anyone ever SVA'd a Mini with a RWD Z Cars conversion and retained its original registration / identity?"

I am not including those that have been built entirely from new parts and hence qualify for a new registration

Ta

#2 Ethel

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:21 PM

I think you'd be lucky as the regulations stand. But then, if it does qualify to keep the original plates it shouldn't need SVA, just an MoT. Notwithstanding what your insurers ask for.

#3 SAD_Man

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 07:10 PM

Cheers Ethel,

So are the Z Cars kits sold as "for motorsport only" basis or along those lines? Therefore you do the conversion at your own risk?

By risk I mean - if VOSA / DVLA decide to crush your car they are not liable?

What is the Z Car official stance on this, I am sure those who have bought the kits must have asked?

Or is it a case of hope no one looks too hard.

As of the cars I have seen on here I can't understand how they satisfy the DVLA guidelines of being able to retain their original identity / reg.

A friend of mine had a V8 Land Rover crushed due to modifications he made being categorized as "radically altered" and not getting it SVA'd so I know they do carry out the threat.

I ask a potential purchaser of a Z cars Honda road kit

Cheers

#4 pete

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:00 PM

Best option is to ring your local SVA centre and ask them. I took pics of my pickup to mine and they didn't believe it would require an SVA but apparantly this response varies depending on which centre you speak to.

#5 SAD_Man

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 08:38 PM

Cheers Pete,

Yes I spoke to the Nuneaton SVA office sometime ago about it and offered to show them photos of a Z Cars conversion but they said that they simply will SVA any vehicle put before them, they wouldn't give an opinion on whether it needed to be SVA'd or not as this wasn't within their 'remit'.

The say its the DVLA / VOSA that enforce the regs, so if the SVA were to say it didn't need an SVA it wouldn't actually mean anything and wouldn't form any 'proof' of the conversion being legitimate in the DVLA's eyes.

I guess the only way to be 100% sure about the 'conformance' to DVLA regs is to pass a voluntary SVA test and then register the car / conversion with the DVLA - But this will almost certainly result in a 'Q' plate as the DVLA will know it is a 'significant' conversion by the fact you sought to do an SVA test.

Not sure how much a 'Q' plate Z Cars conversion would be worth though?

Has anyone sought VOSA / DVLA clarification? My worry would be bringing a Z Cars conversion to their attention and have them say that it must have an SVA - which makes them aware of these conversions.

Edited by SAD_Man, 16 January 2009 - 08:47 PM.


#6 al_reidy

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 06:47 PM

zcars are selling minis with original identities so can only assume they have just MOT'd them...

http://www.trickmedi...rsale/index.php


im not far off the finish line now for mine and dont know if a SVA or MOT is in needed.

Speaking to a couple of insurance companies who stated that there is no section of there paperwork to state if the car has been SVA'd or MOT'd. They dont even need to know if its roadworthy.... (which seems odd but i guess they will wiggle out of a claim if its not)

Did the guy who had the landrover crushed get a warning? or a chance to SVA?

hmmmmm

#7 al_reidy

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 06:52 PM

Cheers Pete,

Yes I spoke to the Nuneaton SVA office sometime ago about it and offered to show them photos of a Z Cars conversion but they said that they simply will SVA any vehicle put before them, they wouldn't give an opinion on whether it needed to be SVA'd or not as this wasn't within their 'remit'.

The say its the DVLA / VOSA that enforce the regs, so if the SVA were to say it didn't need an SVA it wouldn't actually mean anything and wouldn't form any 'proof' of the conversion being legitimate in the DVLA's eyes.

I guess the only way to be 100% sure about the 'conformance' to DVLA regs is to pass a voluntary SVA test and then register the car / conversion with the DVLA - But this will almost certainly result in a 'Q' plate as the DVLA will know it is a 'significant' conversion by the fact you sought to do an SVA test.

Not sure how much a 'Q' plate Z Cars conversion would be worth though?

Has anyone sought VOSA / DVLA clarification? My worry would be bringing a Z Cars conversion to their attention and have them say that it must have an SVA - which makes them aware of these conversions.



from VOSA

Dear Mr Reid

Thank you for your e-mail.

Here at VOSA we are responsible for carrying out SVA tests on vehicles.
The decision on whether one is required is made by the DVLA local office as
advised to you by the DVLA head office. We do not make the decision on
whether a vehicle requires this before registration.

If they request that an SVA test be carried out then we will arrange this
for you. In order to book an SVA you would need to complete application
form SVA1, I have attached a link below for the form. Once you have
completed this it needs to be returned to back to ourselves and we would
then book the vehicle in for the SVA test.

http://www.vosa.gov......val (SVA).pdf

Regards
-----


from DVLA :D

I should firstly mention that DVLA Swansea can only answer general enquiries regarding the registering of vehicles. Specific enquiries regarding the procedures or documentation required must be directed to the DVLA Local Office where the application will be made.

Registering Rebuilt, Radically Altered Vehicles and Kit Cars

Before a vehicle is used or kept on the public road it must to be properly taxed and registered. When a vehicle is first registered, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) allocates a registration number which has to be properly displayed and this remains with the vehicle until it is broken up, destroyed, permanently exported or transferred to another vehicle in what is known as a "cherished transfer."

Sometimes, however, a vehicle needs to be rebuilt and this can call the identity of the vehicle into question. Is it the original which has simply been repaired or have so many new or different parts been used in the rebuilding process that the original vehicle has been effectively broken up?

In allocating a registration number to a rebuilt vehicle, the Agency's main interest is to establish whether or not the vehicle is newly constructed with no previously registered identity (in the present form). Vehicles, which have been substantially rebuilt, need to be examined by one of the DVLA Local Offices. NB A Vehicle Identity Check (VIC) will apply to those vehicles notified to the DVLA as being written off on or after 7 April 2003. For information please refer to INF133 available from the Vehicle Operator Services Agency (VOSA). Information is also available from the VOSA Website www.vosa.gov.uk.

Any vehicle, which has failed VIC, will not be entitled to retain its original registration number, DVLA Local Office will allocate a 'Q' registration number and an Enhanced Single Vehicle Approval (ESVA)/ Single Vehicle Approval (SVA)/ Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) certificate will be required.

If however, a VIC application is rejected by VOSA, DVLA Local Office will need to inspect the vehicle in order to allocate an alternative registration number. ESVA/SVA/MSVA will be required.

A. Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new/used parts.

In order to retain the original registration number:

Cars and Car-Derived Vans must use:

The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or

A new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer/manufacturer (e.g. receipt)

And two other major components from the original vehicle - see list below

Suspension (front & back)
Axles (both)
Transmission
Steering Assembly
Engine

If a second-hand chassis/monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must pass a ESVA/SVA test after which a "Q" prefix registration number will be allocated.

N.B Vehicle Identification Check

From 7th April 2003, all cars and some tricycles (e.g. Robin Reliant) that are written off by an insurance company or declared scrapped by their owners due to accident damage will have to be notified to DVLA.

VIC has been introduced to deter criminals from disguising stolen cars with the identity of written off or scrapped ones. The check is designed to help confirm that the vehicle being returned to the road has been repaired following accident damage and has not been stolen.

For further information contact the Vehicle Operator Services Agency Website on www.vosa.gov.uk

Motorcycles must use:

Unmodified Frame (original or new)

And two other major components from the original vehicle

Forks
Wheels
Engine/gearbox

If a second-hand frame is used the vehicle must pass a Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) test after which a 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

B. Radically Altered Vehicles

This covers vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions.

In these cases the vehicle components used from the original vehicle will be given a numerical value and, in order to retain the original registration numbers the vehicle must score eight or more points.

If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used an ESVA/SVA/MSVA certificate will be required to register the vehicle and a 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

Points


Chassis/body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque)* (original or new) = 5
Suspension = 2
Axles = 2
Transmission = 2
Steering Assembly = 2
Engine = 1


*Direct replacement from the manufactures

NB. Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (i.e. 'Cut and Shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated. ESVA/SVA/MSVA will be required.

Vehicle Identification Number

This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a Vehicle Identity Number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis/bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA Local Office will allocate a replacement VIN.

The DVLA Local Office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.

Registration of Vehicles without Identity

The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first taxing of a vehicle without identity

You should use your nearest DVLA Local Office.

Applications from outside a DVLA Local Office's catchment area will be refused;

You will be asked to produce your driving licence as proof of identity and address;

You will be asked to produce official receipts from identifiable suppliers for the components used in a rebuild. The authenticity of receipts may be checked. They will be stamped by the DVLA Local Office before return;

All vehicles without identity (VIN and registration number) will be inspected by DVLA and referred to the police.

These arrangements have been introduced in an effort to combat vehicle crime. Applicants who rebuild vehicles and can prove the origins of the components need not be concerned. However, if the police believe a vehicle to be stolen DVLA will refuse to register and it may be impounded.

Prospective purchasers of vehicles without identity are advised to exercise caution. If a vehicle is suspected of being stolen both it and the money paid for it may be lost. Advice for prospective purchasers of vehicles (The car buyers Guide) is available from Crime Prevention Officers and DVLA Local Offices.

C. Kit Cars

Where all the parts of a vehicle are supplied new by the manufacturer. Subject to the provision of satisfactory receipts and a Certificate of Newness these vehicles will be registered under a current registration mark.

Kit cars which been built using not more than one reconditioned component will also be registered under a current mark. This is subject to the provision of satisfactory evidence that the component has been reconditioned to an "as new" standard. An ESVA/SVA/MSVA test will be required. For details of the SVA scheme, please see Import Section.

D. Kit Conversions

This is where a kit of new parts is added to an existing vehicle or old parts are added to a kit comprising a manufactured body/chassis/monocoque bodyshell. The general appearance of the vehicle will change and result in a revised description on the registration document/Certificate.

A vehicle will retain its donor registration number if either the original unmodified chassis or unaltered monocoque bodyshell and two other major components are used.

If a new monocoque bodyshell or chassis from a specialist kit manufacturer is used (or an altered chassis/bodyshell from an existing vehicle) together with two major components from a donor vehicle, an age related number will be assigned. The number will be based on the age of the donor vehicle. An ESVA/SVA/MSVA test will be required to register the vehicle.

Where there are insufficient parts from a donor vehicle or in cases where the original registration number is unknown, an ESVA/SVA/MSVA certificate will be required to register the vehicle and a 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

I hope this helps as there was limited information given in your e-mail.




---


So does that help anyone.. it didnt me...

#8 SAD_Man

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:58 PM

Hi Al,

The guy with the Land Rover took it for an MOT and the MOT station said they were not happy to MOT as it had been altered from standard, he thought no more of it and took it somewhere else and got an MOT. About a month later he got a letter from the DVLA saying they wanted to 'inspect' his car, he couldn't understand why but then assumed the original MOT centre had contacted the DVLA with the vehicle details as he couldn't understand how else they would know?

It took ages (6 months) but ultimately it was crushed, they gave him no opportunity to get it SVA'd - I guess it's like the the road tax situation (not that I know anyone who has had a car crushed for not paying for road tax!) if you get caught having a car without road tax they can make you pay the tax you owe but still crush your car?

In his case he lost a 2-3k, so not ideal but not the end of the world but if I had spent 15k... - I probably just worry too much!

Thanks for the info, it at least tells me that only a local DVLA office can officially decide if a vehicle needs an SVA.

It sounds like VOSA and SVA are the same in that they just carry out the regs as they are specified by DVLA.

I think the only way we will ever know for sure is when someone takes a ZCars conversion to a local DVLA office for assessment and if they stipulate an SVA is required, but I guess no one wants to be the 'guinea pig' and end up with a 'Q' plate?

The only thing I do think is that saying that you had spoken to SVA / VOSA offices and it wasn't clear if it needed an SVA would not constitute a defence against getting a car crushed as the DVLA would say it is they 'the DVLA' that should have been consulted. Plus insurance companies don't really have any idea so as you say they could use it as an excuse not to pay out even if you declared the mods.

Yes I have read the same the same stuff off the DVLA website

It is the DVLA point scoring system that worried me, I have been considering both ZCars and the other 16V mini FWD conversions (Watson's etc...) and as far as I can see, if the engine, rear suspension front suspension (Zcars front subframe and suspension) are changed then a vehicle must de SVA'd as it is not possible to achieve the required 8 points to keep the original reg / id? Plus I am not sure if the chassis / body would even meet the 5 points as the modifications are reasonably extensive (cutting the rear boot floor / bulkhead away).

It was also the switch to IVA (from SVA) is thought to be part of the UK falling into line with the rest of Europe as far as these kind of mods go (Rumour more than fact) that has made me think a little more about this, rather than hoping it would be OK.

Thanks for your reply, it has clarified in my mind only the DVLA can answer this, maybe by sending some photos as a 'generic' request can shed some light?

Cheers

#9 al_reidy

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:35 AM

ok, i have an update...

i called the DVLA (http://www.dvla.gov....cal_office.aspx)
which want the leeds office just the call center.
I spoke to 2 people who both spoke to a supervisor who stated that if the V5 is modified for the new engine code and capacity without raising questions, the DVLA are ok with it just having an MOT as it is still registered as a mini.

i want to believe this as it is much less trouble getting it on the road, however i do want this in writing. so i am going to write a letter to the local dvla office (the guys on the phones cannot provide the paper copy).

i hope this is helpful for people. i will keep you informed if i get a written responce to my letter.

wish me luck.

AL

#10 cptkirk

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:48 PM

GOOD LUCK.

I have changed my engine number, CC and colour on my V5 and I have had no request from the DVLA for an engineers report or to have the vehicle SVA'd.

The worst that could happen is that all future Zcars have to be SVA'd, which wouldnt be good as one of the reasons I was doing this was to not have SVA test the car.

It will be good to get a definitive answer to this question, however I am not looking forward to it if it goes the wrong way as that means a shed load more work.

Question: If we do have to SVA the car do they go through the vehicle with a view to the age of the registraion, i.e. pre 92 not running a catalytic converter or would you have to be bang up to date with everything? I hope not......

#11 al_reidy

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:49 PM

GOOD LUCK.

I have changed my engine number, CC and colour on my V5 and I have had no request from the DVLA for an engineers report or to have the vehicle SVA'd.

The worst that could happen is that all future Zcars have to be SVA'd, which wouldnt be good as one of the reasons I was doing this was to not have SVA test the car.

It will be good to get a definitive answer to this question, however I am not looking forward to it if it goes the wrong way as that means a shed load more work.

Question: If we do have to SVA the car do they go through the vehicle with a view to the age of the registraion, i.e. pre 92 not running a catalytic converter or would you have to be bang up to date with everything? I hope not......


from what i can gather its the age of the engine it based on.... which is cat >_<(

#12 cptkirk

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 02:58 PM

Your a braver man than I as that may be one nasty ass can of worms that gets opened, or on the other hand it could be positive news and you will be hailed a hero (or something like).

The greatest challenges in life require the greatest risk, good luck indeed.....

#13 al_reidy

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:01 PM

Your a braver man than I as that may be one nasty ass can of worms that gets opened, or on the other hand it could be positive news and you will be hailed a hero (or something like).

The greatest challenges in life require the greatest risk, good luck indeed.....


cheers.. it was either this or risk it getting crushed. i cant afford to loose £20k or infact be fined more than i can re-mortgage!

Al

#14 cptkirk

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:09 PM

I have to agree I would not want mine to get crushed, way too much time and money going into it, mind you the misses wont be happy if I do have to SVA, as it is no-where near SVA compliant and wouldn't know where to start to find out how to get it there to make sure no Q-plate. I know from the above points system that it wouldnt keep the original so fingers crossed.

#15 CharlieBrown

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 11:18 AM

The points system is the old system, now the ruling is that it can only keep the reg if an unaltered shell is used…..

However saying that the SVA is changing to the IVA this year so there will be a slight change to the regulations.




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