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#1 GregH

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 02:14 PM

hi there
my brother has a mini 30 special eddition
we have recently fitted new disks and pads.
the hub nut will torque up to 100lbft. we then have to crank it more because the specified torque is up at 200lbft and we dont have a 200lbft torque wrench.
the hub nut will do up with a 3ft breaker bar and will then not do up any more. the problem i am having is that the hole for the split pin will not line up with the castle nut when tightened up as much as we can.

do we need to tighten the nut up with an even longer bar to get it round to the next section in the nut or is there another option?

when we had the nut slightly loose to what it should be so we could get the split pin in the brake pads sounded like they were rubbing when brakinbg force is applied or when turning left.

we went out for a drive with the nut done up tight without the split pin and it cured the problem of the rubbing pads. the other side seems to be fine because the hole for the split pin lined up nicely when the nut was done up nice and tightly.

the offending side is the offside.

thanks
Greg and Ryan

#2 M J W J

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 02:44 PM

I would advise buying a torque wrench that can cope. You will most likely need to use it again in the future so it would be a worthwhile investment.

<<large chunk of what I consider dangerous advice removed, 30 year old manuals are only applicable to 30 year old cars>>

Once you have set the nut to the correct torque that is when you will require the breaker bar to turn the nut so that the next set of holes line up.

Edited by Dan, 26 August 2009 - 10:22 PM.
Dangerous advice.


#3 GregH

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 02:57 PM

My haynes manual is telling me that the drive shaft retaining nut is to be done up to 255-270nm or 188-199lbf ft with the single split pin hole in the driveshaft.

is a 200lbf ft torque wrench something you can hire for the day?
will the driveshaft take a torque of over 200lbf ft?

thanks greg

#4 newdawn1st

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:06 PM

Halfords Torque wrench.

Machine mart
torque wrench. cheaper of the 2

and I've always been told the hub nut was torqued to 150ftlb, i'll just go check tho..

edit: clicky says 150 ftlb here, do it to 150ftlb and then round to the next hole so you can get the split pin in >_<

<<it should be noted this only applies to CV joints with 2 split pin holes, there are different types of joint that have different torque settings>>

Edited by Dan, 26 August 2009 - 10:23 PM.
clarification


#5 nicksuth

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:20 PM

HAYNES

Drum Brakes = 83Nm (60 lbf ft)

Disc (multiple split pin holes) = 207 Nm (150 lbf ft)

Disc (single split pin hole) = 235 to 276 Nm (188 to 200 lbf ft)

ROVER

MPi = 260 Nm (190 lbf ft)

Edited by nicksuth, 26 August 2009 - 03:20 PM.


#6 GregH

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:48 PM

thanks.
so its not only my haynes that tells me that it should be 200lbf ft
we will go do it now and see if we can get it round to the right hole.
thanks
greg

#7 jaydee

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:58 PM

hole for the split pin will not line up with the castle nut when tightened up as much as we can.

Are you sure you havent overtightened the nut?

will the driveshaft take a torque of over 200lbf ft?

Yes, but something will get damaged soon. Use the correct torque figure.

#8 GregH

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 04:21 PM

hole for the split pin will not line up with the castle nut when tightened up as much as we can.

Are you sure you havent overtightened the nut?

will the driveshaft take a torque of over 200lbf ft?

Yes, but something will get damaged soon. Use the correct torque figure.


im sure i havnt over tightened it.
its done now thanks very much for your comments. bit of WD40 helped the nut along another 1/6 of a turn to reveal the hole for the split pin.
thanks
greg

#9 Dan

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 04:21 PM

He IS using the correct figure, tightening the late hub nut to 200 ft lb is not going to cause any damage. There is a specific procedure to follow involving using a flat washer first in place of the conical washer and if you haven't done that and (as it sounds from your description) have driven the car with the hub slack you might well need a new wheel bearing and maybe CV joint.

There is franky some very dangerous advice being given here but I don't have time at the moment to wade through it and filter out all the garbage and bad information so I'm going to lock the thread until I or another mod can sort it out later.

Greg, I'll be back later with some important advice for you. Unless another mod steps in first.

Edited by Dan, 26 August 2009 - 04:22 PM.


#10 Dan

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:35 PM

Right, important advice.

The reason your hub wouldn't go back together properly is because the joint had been disturbed and you didn't re-seat it properly. This procedure is described in the Haynes manual. You need to get a large flat washer, the dimensions are in the manual. You replace the conical washer with this flat washer and torque the assembly once, then align the holes before taking it apart and re-assembling with the correct conical washer. It is imperative that you don't disturb anything before the final torqueing. It is essential that this procedure is followed every time the alignment of any of the hub parts is diturbed. If you do not do this the conical washer will pinch up on the CV joint early and grab the end of it. That stops the bearing seating fully home and nomatter how much torque you apply then it will not get any tighter. Assembling the joint badly like this almost always leads to the wheel bearing failing, especially if you've driven the car in this condition. I would suggest you need to take it apart again and inspect the bearing very carefully for any obvious damage (although there may be invisible damage) and inspect the CV joint nose for a ridge that has been pressed into it by the washer. If there is a ridge you must linish it off before re-assembling the joint or it will never seat properly. If there is a large groove present the CV should be replaced.

Assuming you have one-hole joints you were quite correct in your torque setting, ignore what's been said by others above. You must get a proper torque wrench for this range though and you must use it. It is essential this bearing is pre-loaded the correct amount. This is one of those jobs where the proper tools are essential, this is a safety critical item.

Driving any distance without the split pin in the hub is madness, and essentially illegal. Your car was not roadworthy and as such it should not have been on the road and you were not insured.

Edited by Dan, 26 August 2009 - 10:37 PM.


#11 bmcecosse

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:53 PM

I have never ever used the 'flat washer' method - and never had the slightest trouble. Common sense tells you to seat the bearings as you nip the nut up initially. We have been here before - that nut needs to be very very tight - as all the manuals say, to the torque and then ON TO THE NEXT HOLE. You will need a longer bar than 3 ft! Good tip is to fit an old wheel with an old flat tyre - and wedge it up against a brick - with a mate standing on the brake pedal too! You MUST NOT run with the nut slack!

Edited by bmcecosse, 26 August 2009 - 10:56 PM.


#12 Dan

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:19 PM

We have indeed been here before and at the time I asked you not to post this advice here because it is dangerous. This thread alone should be enough to tell you that common sense does not always prevail. The very reason that torque settings are published and procedures are devised for assembly is that everyone is different. For example, you say 'You will need a longer bar than 3 feet' but I do this job using a 2 foot - ish torque wrench and a 2 foot bar quite comfortably using the proper settings. Everyone is different and everyone will have their own idea of how tight is tight enough on any given fixing. At work I spend a lot of my time tightening 3 inch nuts using just my fingers to quite high torque values and few of my colleagues are up to removing anything I've tightened. If I went around tightening critical fixtures as far as I thought felt tight without using torque values I'd destroy most things I worked on simply because I tighten things all day and so I can put on a lot of force. I have in the past tightened a rear hub nut to the point that I stripped all the thread out of it because I forgot it was handed. I stripped all the threads out of an alloy flathead block once using nothing more than a nut driver. I'm not trying to show off, just point out that torque settings are published for a reason. During the years I've been contributing here I've seen a great many threads about failed wheelbearings that can be directly attributed to poor assembly. Don't assume that everyone reading has the same level of skill as you do, how would you feel if someone followed your advice and was injured or killed as a result?

#13 MRA

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:07 AM

Rover and Haynes both recomend the use of the flat washer to assist in "seating" the whole assembly......

It is a must to avoid issues later on, and when done correctly using good parts you should not have the issues commonly found when not using the flat washer.

What can happen ?? as you tighten the assembly the coned washer grips the CV joint you can now tighten upto the torque figures above......... BUT the inner bearing will still be loose, by using a flat washer you avoid this issue, brcause the whole assembly is pulled up tight withouit the use of the cone washer, once you have done this then and only then replace the flat washer with the cone washer and nut carefully ensuring that you do NOT disturb the assembly (holding the driveshaft helps) then torque it up.

#14 mniguy_nz

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:02 AM

We have indeed been here before and at the time I asked you not to post this advice here because it is dangerous. This thread alone should be enough to tell you that common sense does not always prevail. The very reason that torque settings are published and procedures are devised for assembly is that everyone is different. For example, you say 'You will need a longer bar than 3 feet' but I do this job using a 2 foot - ish torque wrench and a 2 foot bar quite comfortably using the proper settings. Everyone is different and everyone will have their own idea of how tight is tight enough on any given fixing. At work I spend a lot of my time tightening 3 inch nuts using just my fingers to quite high torque values and few of my colleagues are up to removing anything I've tightened. If I went around tightening critical fixtures as far as I thought felt tight without using torque values I'd destroy most things I worked on simply because I tighten things all day and so I can put on a lot of force. I have in the past tightened a rear hub nut to the point that I stripped all the thread out of it because I forgot it was handed. I stripped all the threads out of an alloy flathead block once using nothing more than a nut driver. I'm not trying to show off, just point out that torque settings are published for a reason. During the years I've been contributing here I've seen a great many threads about failed wheelbearings that can be directly attributed to poor assembly. Don't assume that everyone reading has the same level of skill as you do, how would you feel if someone followed your advice and was injured or killed as a result?


I don't mean to hijack this thread and I'm certainly not disagreeing with any comments but I've got a question as I just did a front wheel bearing and didn't use the flat washer method. I replaced a SKF deep groove ball bearing with a TIMKEN tapered roller bearing. My question is does the flat washer method apply to all types of bearing? The way I see it is if you torque up a tapered roller with the flat washer the drive flange will clamp the bearing and compress it then when you release the nut to put the conical washer on the bearing will spring back to its original position as the CV is a sliding fit in the bearing and the bearing cone is free floating? I've done approximatly 10 miles on the bearing but should I undo the castle nut and use the flat washer method?

Cheers

#15 Purple Tom

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:33 AM

I've just spent the evening rebuilding my front hubs in preparation for a long drive and I would 100% agree with all of Dans comments. The flat washer method is essential! I speak from experience because due to extreme tiredness/stupidity/inexperience I once tried to fit a new disc without seating the bearings correctly using a flat washer. I couldn't for the life of me get the bearing to tighten up correctly, despite torquing up to 193lb/ft. In the end I came on here and did some research, then read the Haynes manual properly, and then made a washer to do the job and its been an essential part of the 'Mini special tools' kit to this day.




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