49 replies to this topic

[stitch-86]

I only brought my mini a few weeks ago and the rust is worse in some places than that lol (albeit the unnderneath is remarkably rust free) Although i do have 10 new panels waiting to be welded on!

Anything is possible if you have the time and funds; but then if people didnt want a car that is ultimately going to cost them money in lots of repairs they wouldnt buy a mini!

[skoughi]

Hello all and thank you for the replies,
So, it's illegal to put the shell from one Mini onto another one?! I've not heard that before! The plan with the place that we went to was to get another Mini and then put it's shell onto our Mini, there was nothing about taking anything out of our car! Our Mini is like our baby!
As far as I know there are two Mini places in Nottingham (or there were at least) and one of them we found bad reviews for, and the other had good reviews. So we went to the one with the good reviews, obviously..
ShoutforJoy - that link that you put is for a Mini that has an engine but needs some parts to get it going again, so would it be illegal to buy that Mini and take off it's shell to put on our Mini?
You guys are a wealth of information!
I'll go and take some pictures of the rusty parts, then try and figure out how to get pictures onto here! You'll have to forgive me though, the Mini is quite dirty too! The last time we washed her my other half managed to put a hole in one of her rusty bits, so I've been forbidden to wash her again!
I did suggest learning to weld to my other half but he pointed out that we'd have to learn how to weld and then buy all the equipment you need by which point we may as well have just paid someone else to do it. Our local college does a welding course for £657 + exam fees and that's way too expensive.

I will try to explain exactly what we're getting at, but please accept my apologies if it sounds a bit patronising - that's not my intention.

The mini has a monocoque design where everything hangs off the shell, unlike the traditional chassis design where everything hangs off the chassis. The shell is part of the structure and strength of the car. You cannot take-off or put-on a shell on a mini; you have to take everything off the old shell and attach it to a new one. This is what the term 're-shelling' refers to.

When people talk about the identity of a mini they usually mean the VIN or chassis number. In then case of a Mini this is the number of the shell and will usually have a corresponding registration number. You can see the VIN number on your V5 registration document - it should correspond with the VIN number stamped on a plate somewhere in your mini - on the inner wing if I remember correctly for a car of your age.

Now what is illegal is to take the registration number off your car and attach it to a different shell. That would be to change it's identity, most often referred to as "ringing". Unless you buy a brand new heritage shell at £4k+.

What you could do is to buy another mini (like the one I referred to) and swap all or some of the bits from your existing mini onto it. This could include the full interior, engine, wheels etc so that it looks the same. You could even spray it BRG and put some new decals on it if you wished too. But you must not change the registration number from the one that the replacement shell has currently - that's the big no no.

If you would like a second opinion and don't mind a run out to the other side of Nottingham (Bingham) I could give you the details of the garage that does the work of my Mini that I am not able or do not have the time to do. He is not a Mini specialist but does have many years experience in restoration (mainly MG's I do believe)

hth, Paul

Quick question, sorry if it sounds stupid. If someone bought an old mini for its shell and the dvla was notified that it had been scrapped or broken up (not even sure if the broken up option exists), Then the registration document of the original mini was changed to show the vin no of the one that was bought for the shell. Or the one for the shell recieved all the running gear of the original then scrap that one and legally change the reg number to the one of the original mini? Surely if the numbers on the document matches up with whats on the car then can't be wrong? Maybe i talk crap!

[Tupers]

The DVLA wont let you swap the VIN number it has to stay with the original registration it was paired with.

[Scallywag630]

Hello all and thank you for the replies,
So, it's illegal to put the shell from one Mini onto another one?! I've not heard that before! The plan with the place that we went to was to get another Mini and then put it's shell onto our Mini, there was nothing about taking anything out of our car! Our Mini is like our baby!
As far as I know there are two Mini places in Nottingham (or there were at least) and one of them we found bad reviews for, and the other had good reviews. So we went to the one with the good reviews, obviously..
ShoutforJoy - that link that you put is for a Mini that has an engine but needs some parts to get it going again, so would it be illegal to buy that Mini and take off it's shell to put on our Mini?
You guys are a wealth of information!
I'll go and take some pictures of the rusty parts, then try and figure out how to get pictures onto here! You'll have to forgive me though, the Mini is quite dirty too! The last time we washed her my other half managed to put a hole in one of her rusty bits, so I've been forbidden to wash her again!
I did suggest learning to weld to my other half but he pointed out that we'd have to learn how to weld and then buy all the equipment you need by which point we may as well have just paid someone else to do it. Our local college does a welding course for £657 + exam fees and that's way too expensive.

I will try to explain exactly what we're getting at, but please accept my apologies if it sounds a bit patronising - that's not my intention.

The mini has a monocoque design where everything hangs off the shell, unlike the traditional chassis design where everything hangs off the chassis. The shell is part of the structure and strength of the car. You cannot take-off or put-on a shell on a mini; you have to take everything off the old shell and attach it to a new one. This is what the term 're-shelling' refers to.

When people talk about the identity of a mini they usually mean the VIN or chassis number. In then case of a Mini this is the number of the shell and will usually have a corresponding registration number. You can see the VIN number on your V5 registration document - it should correspond with the VIN number stamped on a plate somewhere in your mini - on the inner wing if I remember correctly for a car of your age.

Now what is illegal is to take the registration number off your car and attach it to a different shell. That would be to change it's identity, most often referred to as "ringing". Unless you buy a brand new heritage shell at £4k+.

What you could do is to buy another mini (like the one I referred to) and swap all or some of the bits from your existing mini onto it. This could include the full interior, engine, wheels etc so that it looks the same. You could even spray it BRG and put some new decals on it if you wished too. But you must not change the registration number from the one that the replacement shell has currently - that's the big no no.

If you would like a second opinion and don't mind a run out to the other side of Nottingham (Bingham) I could give you the details of the garage that does the work of my Mini that I am not able or do not have the time to do. He is not a Mini specialist but does have many years experience in restoration (mainly MG's I do believe)

hth, Paul

Quick question, sorry if it sounds stupid. If someone bought an old mini for its shell and the dvla was notified that it had been scrapped or broken up (not even sure if the broken up option exists), Then the registration document of the original mini was changed to show the vin no of the one that was bought for the shell. Or the one for the shell recieved all the running gear of the original then scrap that one and legally change the reg number to the one of the original mini? Surely if the numbers on the document matches up with whats on the car then can't be wrong? Maybe i talk crap!

You cannot change a VIN number on a V5.

[skoughi]

Ok thanks for that, i guess they're best bet is find a car that needs running gear then, then paint and swap trim to look like the old one. Could they put the reg no of their old mini if it was scrapped or whatever on that docu, like putting on your private reg no?

[ShoutforJoy]

Quick question, sorry if it sounds stupid. If someone bought an old mini for its shell and the dvla was notified that it had been scrapped or broken up (not even sure if the broken up option exists), Then the registration document of the original mini was changed to show the vin no of the one that was bought for the shell. Or the one for the shell recieved all the running gear of the original then scrap that one and legally change the reg number to the one of the original mini? Surely if the numbers on the document matches up with whats on the car then can't be wrong? Maybe i talk crap!

Firstly, what is legal and what you might get away with are not necessarily the same. However, if there are any concerns raised over your vehicle's identity VOSA will summon your vehicle for a VIC (Vehicle Identity Check). If they are not satisfied the next time you see your mini will be in Sainsbury's sporting a rather fetching Heinz label!

It is my understanding that you can't simply change the VIN No on the registration document in much the same way that you cannot just change the engine number any more. You would need to provide substantial documentation. A simple computer check would reveal that are trying to use the number off a previously scrapped shell. I do know someone whose VIN number was incorrect on the log book by a single digit - he had to have a VIC and convince them it was the same car before the log book was corrected.

By your second method do you mean a number plate transfer like you might do with a personalised plate? There are lots of rules surrounding these; like the plate you put on can't make your car appear newer than it really is etc. I don;t knwo much about this but doubtless someone will come along who does.

If you're talking about switching the VIN plate and number plate then that's ringing and is an offence.

[cradley-heathen]

i agree with what they said, either pay to get your repaired (im sure i could do the work for you at our place for less than 2k including paint job) or spend 2k on a new mini, again we have plenty to chose from at work for about this money.

reshelling is for those with deep pockets.

[Cooperman]

The 'big issue' with re-shelling in the world of Minis is with the Mk.1 cars. It used to be easy to re-shell a Mk.1 into a better Mk.1 shell but in theory that is no longer possible, so if you have a potentially valiuable Mk. 1, say a Cooper 'S' with a rotten body, then your options are more limited. However, the identification markings on a Mk.1 are not easy to find, so if you 're-build' your Mk. 1 shell, using a jig and retaining some parts of the original shell, in theory you are legal.
It is fair to say that most of the competition Mk.1's have been re-shelled at some time in the past, but those of us who do use early cars in competition are deterred from doing so by the inability to re-shell if a big accident ensues. It has put me off using my Cooper 'S' for rallying. But how a re-shell into another re-built shell would ever be identified as such by DVLA inspectors is another matter for conjecture. After all, it could have been re-shelled at any time from the 60's onwards and there are no identifying numbers such as you find on modern cars. I think the same applies to Lotus Cortinas, Escort Mk.1, etc..
One has to be a bit pragmatic over all this and just aware of what can, can't, should and shouldn't be done.
I sold a fully restored 850 Mk.1 shell, complete with V5 and lots of running gear including 2 sub-frames, etc, but I believe it has been used to re-build a really rotten 1964 Cooper 'S'.
What DVLA are aiming for is to prevent the theft and ringing of cars, not so much stop the genuine restoration of real classics.
With the later cars, the shell number is stamped into the scuttle panel. But this is the panel which rusts so badly and almost always has to be replaced eventually. Then the stamped-in number is lost. I asked my MoT expert about this and he said that so long as the VIN plate is in place and is the correct plate no-one would ever need to look further.
If I wrote off my Mk.1 shell, Iknow what I would do, but I would not advertise this on an open forum! 'Nuff said!

[mk1leg]

This topic should close as we will never agree on what what.................Get a new ahell..............

[xtr hardcore]

Hahs great topic Great read!

[skoughi]

Quick question, sorry if it sounds stupid. If someone bought an old mini for its shell and the dvla was notified that it had been scrapped or broken up (not even sure if the broken up option exists), Then the registration document of the original mini was changed to show the vin no of the one that was bought for the shell. Or the one for the shell recieved all the running gear of the original then scrap that one and legally change the reg number to the one of the original mini? Surely if the numbers on the document matches up with whats on the car then can't be wrong? Maybe i talk crap!

Firstly, what is legal and what you might get away with are not necessarily the same. However, if there are any concerns raised over your vehicle's identity VOSA will summon your vehicle for a VIC (Vehicle Identity Check). If they are not satisfied the next time you see your mini will be in Sainsbury's sporting a rather fetching Heinz label!

It is my understanding that you can't simply change the VIN No on the registration document in much the same way that you cannot just change the engine number any more. You would need to provide substantial documentation. A simple computer check would reveal that are trying to use the number off a previously scrapped shell. I do know someone whose VIN number was incorrect on the log book by a single digit - he had to have a VIC and convince them it was the same car before the log book was corrected.

By your second method do you mean a number plate transfer like you might do with a personalised plate? There are lots of rules surrounding these; like the plate you put on can't make your car appear newer than it really is etc. I don;t knwo much about this but doubtless someone will come along who does.

If you're talking about switching the VIN plate and number plate then that's ringing and is an offence.

Didn't mean to sound like i was suggesting ringing it! All the numbers have to match up legally.It's just these folk have an attachment to that mini and the reg number that goes with it and was trying to think of a way around the expensive reshell. So if a car is notified scrapped/ broken up does that mean the shell has to get squashed even if it's sound? Does that mean that every other part on that car has to go in the bin too? Didn't know about the reg number that can't make the car appear newer. Would think that personalised plate method would be the cheapest way, buying a probably newer mini that needs running gear then transfering the old reg number, and painting it the colour of the old car. Some of these older minis are hardly original though, ie new floors,wings,front panels,doors etc. But then these should probably go for the proper checks, can't remember what it's called sure someone will tell me.

Edited by skoughi, 09 May 2011 - 09:24 PM.

[Cooperman]

In order to record a vehicle as scrapped now it has to have a destruction certificate from a breaker or crusher.

[guliver77]

So much information!!
Right, the thing is our Mini is really my fella's Mini as he had it before we met and as much as I think we should have a go at the rust ourselves, he refuses to try it on the grounds that we don't have a clue what we're doing and that he thinks that if we're getting a garage to replace the panels and do the welding, the cleaning up of the rust patches won't be too much more on top of that. Same with stripping the paint off. So, rightly or wrongly, we're going to get a garage to do everything.
Perhaps we could go with the suggestion of nicking just the panels we need from a second Mini and not the whole shell but because the back end is rusty above the window, behind the bumper and underneath the lights I thought that was all one large panel that would need to be replaced....
As for money, we have a maximum of about £3000 to spend and ideally get her looking as good as possible - and then waxoyled! So then she can last as long as possible before needing de-rusting again.
Google maps tells me that Bingham is about an hours drive away from here, so I'm sure we could go that far for a good garage.
Our Mini is very important to us and we'd like to keep her as whole as possible really.. that might sound daft. Changing her number plate would be terrible! I mean for one thing, she's called Fumie 'cause those are the letters in her reg number!
She needs new doors I think, the driver's side one was nackered by the truck I mentioned but they were both second hand when fitted and they had been sprayed by the same joker who did the wing in the photo. And it's not a good job. Maybe the passenger side one would be alright with just a respray. I thought we'd need a new bonnet. The boot has rust along the edges inside - I don't know if that could be fixed or not. I can't comment on the underside of the car really, as far as I know it looks okay. The damage to above the rear window has started to let the rain in, the stuff that was in the boot got soaked.. I don't think that's done any perminent damage so far, it just needs a good clean. As I mentioned before, I'm forbidden from cleaning the Mini or investigating it too closely 'cause the other half gets so stressed about it.. He's got a lot of things going on and it's one more thing for him to worry about, hense me trying to sort it out.
So, maybe this garage in Bingham would be a good place to get a second opinion.
cradley-heathen - where do you work? We could come there for a quote too if it's not too far away?
Thanks again everyone!

[lrostoke]

You know this 2nd hand shell thing is a bit daft when you think about it.

I mean whats the difference with owning a mini and over the course of a few years, changing the engine, then a bit later replacement rear subframe, replacement front subframe.
Maybe even fit new seats or a walnut dash. New caliper , brake drum, radius arm. Windscreen
Even new wings, front panel, door reskin

All of the above can definitly happen with minis over time

Now from the original motor you started with whats left. ??? But its still on the same VIN and registration.

[Bungle]

the shell the bit that is the car