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repainting in 2pack over celly....


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#1 Prawn

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 03:26 PM

hey guys, my mini needs a fair few little things doing body wise, so instead of blowing a million little areas in, im going to respay the whole car again this easter/summer!

last year it was done in celly at xmas time, i did it myself, and the results were really good. the problem is, that teh cars now not used very much, but it sadly kept outside.... the cellulose paint just doesnt hold its shine very well, and seems very suceptable (sp?) to stone chips and the like!

can you spray 2 pack ontop of celly? what sorta prep should i do first? and what sort of primer should i use? im doing the car the same colour again, apart from the roof which will be black instead of white diamond.

how does 2 pack paint work? as i always thought it consisted of a base coat, and then a laquer thats sprayed on afterwards!

im painting it flame red if it makes any different, paint code was year was COF.

a friend of mine told me that when he did his mini in 2pac there was only 1 paint, which somehow contained the laquer mixed in.... what is this? ive not heard of it before....

i know everyone says you need an air fed mask to spray 2pack, but ill be doing it outside under a gazeebo, wearing an army style face mask for protection. a few guys i know have sprayed 2pack at home with just carpenters masks!


so

any tips on spraying my mini red again in 2pack over last years celly paint job would be great!

thanks in advance

Nick

#2 THedooBZ

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 04:40 PM

im not an expert when it comes to painting but if you want to change the paint you will have to flat the cellulose paint down to primer or maybe just remove any lacquer etc.. this give the new paint a jey to grip, then maybe give it a fresh coat of primer then apply the 2 pack.


as for 2 pack it is a part of paint and a part of hardener which are mixed together.

some of the guys on here will be able to help you out as they have a more in depth knowledge than me.

#3 Paintman

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 09:41 PM

Hi Nick,

You’ll have no problems painting over celly with 2 pack at all.

There’s 2 different types of paint that you can get in 2 pack for flame red, 1 is a base coat that will need lacquering over and the other one which you mate painted is called a solid colour which does not need lacquering. If I was you I’d use the solid colour paint only because you’ll have no experience with lacquer, plus if you get any dirt in between the base coat when your lacquering up you’ll see it and have to paint that panel again.

To many people are under the impression that you have to primer the whole car when your doing a full re spray, this is not the case there’s no need for it at all. Only primer the areas that have been repaired. I use standox primer but its £80 for 4 Ltrs including the hardener, just use what you can afford I’m sure that your paint supplier will have a cheaper primer, and only buy what you’ll need 1 Ltr will go a long way.


Two pack hazards quoted from my COSH course a few years ago.

Two-pack spray paint contains isocyanates. In these paints, isocyanate hardeners or activators added to liquid resin react to produce a polyurethane film.
Vapours, spray mists, dusts and deposits containing isocyanates are highly irritant to the eyes and respiratory tract, they may also cause asthma or exacerbate existing asthmatic symptoms.
Symptoms that may result from exposure to isocyanates include sore eyes, running nose, sore throat, coughing, wheezing or tight chest, breathlessness.
The spraying of two-pack paints containing isocyanates is one of the most important causes of occupational asthma in the UK. Some people may become sensitised as a result of working with two-pack spray paints, ie they become allergic to isocyanates. In sensitised people, even minute concentrations of isocyanates can lead to asthma attacks. Asthmatic attacks may occur immediately or may be delayed for up to 12 hours after exposure, so symptoms may occur away from work. Fatal cases have been reported but these are rare.

This is why you need an air feed mask, I’ve been painting cars for over 20 years and have always used an air feed mask with 2 pack paints.

Don’t let people tell you any different, look after your own heath mate.

#4 Guess-Works.com

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 09:32 AM

On the subject of 2pack, what's the availability like nowadays ??

#5 cooper_shaz

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 09:47 AM

2k is still widely availabble although the new ISO guides are meaniong that it is getting phased out and replaced with the water based paint systems.

I think it is 2007 the changes start to come in to play..
so a couple years till it is very hard to get.

#6 Prawn

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 12:24 PM

thanks paintman! thats EXACLTY what i wanted to hear!

ive been told i should use a bar coat, or blocking primer before applying the 2pack ontop of the red celly....

its interesting what u say about primer though, i dont totally understand that!

are you saying that if its well flatted i can apply 2pack flame red directly onto my cellulose flame red?

when u say areas that are repaired, im guessing you mean areas that have been taken down to metal and need finishing off before spraying....

im intending to debumper the rear end of the car, and fill all the holes in the rear quarters and front end left from my sportspack arches. im guessing that i really need to primer the whole quarter panels/rear end/front?

with regards to teh roof, i ran out of paint close the the edge when it was sprayed, and although not noticable from a distance of more than 3feet, the thin paint has allowed surface rust to form in teh gutter, which will obviously need sorting out!

my roof appears to have many very minor marks in it, which im guessing will show up really badly when its painted gloss black..... would it be an idea to skim the hole roof with stopper (fine surface filler) and then sand most of it away to get a smooth finish? or would this crack as the roof flexes as it often does if somethings put on it or such like?

would i not get a patchy finish if bits were sprayed over the red and bits were sprayed over grey primer?

any more info would be great!

do you happen to know if its possible to rent an air fed mask at all? or how much a cheapish one would cost me to buy?

thanks in advance

Nick

#7 Paintman

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:03 PM

2k is still widely availabble although the new ISO guides are meaniong that it is getting phased out and replaced with the water based paint systems.

I think it is 2007 the changes start to come in to play..
so a couple years till it is very hard to get.

January 2007 the law comes in, but the government are giving all body shops until November to make the change, after November 2007 you want be able to get 2 pack at all. Not unless you buy on the black market.

#8 Paintman

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:46 PM

I’ve never used Barcoat on top of celly before, just no need for it. But if you want to use it to be safe then by all means do so, you have to apply primer over the Barcoat which is going to add more costs to your re paint.
What ever you do do not flat the Barcoat before you primer, and try not to flat though the primer so the Barcoat is showing either.

If your going to spray directly on to the celly red then apply your first coat of 2 pack red very lightly, if you put the paint on to heavy on your first coat then you’ll run in to problems such as reactions (crinkled effect)

As I said before only primer the areas that have been repaired i.e. the repairs that you have made yourself. Its up to you if you primer the whole ¼ panels and front and rear where you’ve debumpered. Me as a professional, I only primer just beyond my repairs. The photo below is of a Ferrari that I repainted last year and as you can see the primer goes no further than the repairs.

Posted Image

Regarding your roof, remove the surface rust then 600’s wet flat the whole roof until the marks have all gone, if you’ve gone though to bare metal just primer the roof.

You won’t get a patchy job from spraying over grey primer to red paint. You’ll be putting at least 3 coats of red on the car and red has good pigments and always covers well.

Not sure if you can hire air feed masks? I’m sure you can pick one up for less than £100 as the one I use is made by devilbiss and cost around £240 ish.

#9 Paintman

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:55 PM

Finished Ferrari

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#10 Prawn

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:40 PM

thanks agian paintman! that ferrari looks gorgeous!

what should i do about windows? is it acceptable to leave them in and tape up around them? or am i best off taking them out completely?

i also want to spray the interior as well..... but id really rather not have to remove the dash and everything :S would it be ok to totally mask off the dash all over and then spray inside the car? would i get problems with the paint hanging in the air and then settling grainy on the floor?

if im doing the interior as well am i best off taking out all the glass?

ive sorted out an airfed mask now, a friend of mine happens to have 2 and has offered me the use of one!

im going to use the solid colour 2pack paint.

how do i go about finishing it off? when i did my car in celly last year it was given about 5 coats of celly flame red, left to harden for a week, then the whole car was flatted down with first 1000 wet, and then 1500g wet, after that it was polished up with a buffer using some 3M cutting compound.... this brought it up AMAZINGLY!

how do i finish off 2pack? do you just spray it on and leave it? and hope for a good smooth finish? or once its dry can you still flat it and buff it up? can you still T-cut a car painted in 2pack? i know you cant with metallic paints, because the colour is underneath.... what about solid colours?

sorry to ask so many questions, i just want to make sure ive got everything all arranged and sorted out before i start! as i want to get it done fairly quickly in summer once i start it!

#11 Paintman

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:56 PM

For what its worth take the windows out.

Masking the dash up is ok, if you what to paint the floor as well simply paint it last after you’ve painted inside. If you don’t want to paint the floor mask it up.

Leave the car for a day or so and then flat it with 1500’s wet n dry, a tip put a few stops of fairy liquid into a warm bucket of water, this will help the wet n dry glide on the paintwork.

Once you’ve flatted the car buff it up with farecla g3 to a shine.

#12 stag

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:56 PM

hi paintman,do you know how many people you have helped with this you`v answered all that i wanted to know about 2pac for when i do mine in the spring
cheers mate :lol:

#13 Paintman

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 09:10 PM

hi paintman,do you know how many people you have helped with this you`v answered all that i wanted to know about 2pac for when i do mine in the spring
cheers mate :lol:

Your welcome.

It’s hard trying to get professional help from anyone now a days, if I can help then I will. :grin:

#14 kada1980

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 09:17 PM

Good advice thank you i'm also going to have a go at painting mine in 2pack in a couple of weeks, if you don't here from me it probably means i've c**ked it up :grin:

#15 Prawn

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 11:33 AM

For what its worth take the windows out.

Masking the dash up is ok, if you what to paint the floor as well simply paint it last after you’ve painted inside. If you don’t want to paint the floor mask it up.

Leave the car for a day or so and then flat it with 1500’s wet n dry, a tip put a few stops of fairy liquid into a warm bucket of water, this will help the wet n dry glide on the paintwork.

Once you’ve flatted the car buff it up with farecla g3 to a shine.

cheers paint man!

i was told that if its done in 2 pack it wont need the same care and attention that the celly paint job did, is this true?

the celly seemed to go dull very quickly, and to keep it looking mint it needed T-cutting every two months or so to keep that real new car shine....

ive been told that if its done in 2pack itll come up gorgeous after jsut a good wash with hot soapy water, is this true?

can yous till polish 2pack like you do celly? and what happens if you t-cut 2pack?

what sort of products should i be using on a 2 pack car? should i still wax it after polishing it?

im slightly confused by the fact that i flat it and buff it up again like celly, does this not mean itll also be able to dull and go nasty again like the celly did?

Thanks again!

Nick




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