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Gaydon Mini Show - Sunday 1St July 2012


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#166 the.stroker

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

Just to clear a few things up, the IP addresses of members KZXR and REDDIMINI are the same. We have since been made aware these two members are partners, hence the confusion as they posted from the same IP address.
Sock puppett accounts are frowned on,and in addition break forum rules and regulations.A temporary thread lock gave us time to investigate.
all's well that end's well.

#167 Reddimini

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:24 PM

Thanks :-)

#168 mm man

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:07 PM

"And no I was not offered to be judged even though the presentation had not taken place."

The organiser offered to get your car judged as there was still time and you said "I don't want it judged."
This has all happened because you tried to enter a beginners class and yet above you say you won car of the day at mitp, hardly a beginner.

Correct KZXR - I'm glad someone can bear witness to that. I did offer to have it judged as it wasn't too late, but he refused the offer. I had £10 in my hand ready to give him his refund to but as he turned and walked away as I was trying to offer it I gave up. The Gaydon staff organiser then went to see him to arrange the refund formally by post instead. I'm soory but I don;t know what else we could have done to rectify things.

Just to clear a few things up, the IP addresses of members KZXR and REDDIMINI are the same. We have since been made aware these two members are partners, hence the confusion as they posted from the same IP address.
Sock puppett accounts are frowned on,and in addition break forum rules and regulations.A temporary thread lock gave us time to investigate.
all's well that end's well.



Partners? Pre empting a reply??? looks like a witch-hunt to me! ;D play by the rules! we both know what happened as there was only you and me and my son there!!!!!!!!!!

#169 Reddimini

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:13 PM

And he people running the trade stand lol


I just don't know how many more times you want me to apologise.

#170 Shifty

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:17 PM

Ok then, I think this has gone far enough now.

I don't see this going any where else, apart from an extended bout of "he said/she said".

I think any further discussion of this would be better done via PM

Topic closed.

Any problems, feel free to PM me.

#171 Tanya

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:38 PM


I'm sorry that you did not have a good experience but I think on the Concours front, you were an exception. It appears that there was a problem with the classes that neither the organisers or you picked up on before the day. Personally, in your position, I would have queried the class position before I booked to ensure that my Mini was in the correct class if I felt is wasn't clear. You say that you have shown before therefore you are not a beginner, but there no classes for modified in the Concours classes so I would have checked that I could show a modified Mini in the Concours class. However, I am sure that the organisers will review the class situation in light of this and also know the manage Minis that are entered in the wrong class to ensure that they are properly transferred from class to class (if it is possible) without getting lost.

I know that some people do use Concours and Show 'n' shine primarily to get a good parking space, be in the centre of the show and to be easily able to talk to other enthusiasts. I feel that if showing in Show'n'shine wasn't your primary reason for entering, possibly you should not have entered. Personally, I expect anyone who enters Concours and Show'n'shine to compete in good spirit, i.e. to compete (the primary reason for being there) but to do so in good spirit (chatting to other competitors and enthusiasts as you clean). Personally, I would not attend any of the classes (Concours or Show'n'shine) without a reasonable cleaning kit as how else would I be able to complete? My understanding was that the Show'n'shine classes were supposed to be a beginners class for the owner, not so the owner could show to a lesser standard (not so clean).

I feel that your Mini and bike were interesting and visible enough to be parked anywhere in the show and still get plenty of attention and enthusiasts coming to speak to you.

Dave Hollis told me about his Show'n'shine plans last year and I think they sound like a great idea and would suit you well. There are people who want to show their Mini but not in a Concours type way. Gaydon's Show'n'shine is not the same idea as Dave's as the point of Gaydon's class is to encourage new people into Concours, and to be judged by judges not fellow enthusiasts. I don't think these two Show'n'shines can be compared as they are quite different with different aims. BMC also run excellent, thorough and competitive Concours classes.

Personally, we find the Mini Concours scene as it stands is good and does the job, to grade Minis. Although all judges look for slightly different things when they judge, broadly speaking the same high standard Minis win. While you get comments like it's always the same Minis winning and that's boring, people don't complain about same football teams, tennis players, dogs (I used to show Bassets) winning. If they win time and time again, it is because they are the best.

Our judges at Gaydon were really helpful and told us what they had marked us down on (they also told us what they liked, although we were more interested in their constructive criticism). We know differerent judges have their different likes and dislikes so don't automatically take their advice, but it is invaluable to us to hear it so we can consider it, talk it through we other enthusiasts then use it to improve our Minis.



Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post, can I please correct you on a few points, either I didn’t convey them clearly enough in my first post or you have made the wrong assumptions! Please forgive me for doing this in list form it’s just because it’s quicker.
Bad experience “you were an exception”
I had at least three other competitors convey their disappointment in one way or another about the concours event, mainly Classes, turnout, atmosphere and Judging times.
Classes “queried before I booked”
I did ring Gaydon before I booked and asked them if I could display my mini as a single entrant, I was told no unless I was part of a bigger club. After I explained what I had I was informed the only option open to me was to go into SnS custom class or the public car park. I guess the guy on the phone wasn’t the organiser of the concours and so may be the organisers in future should of given their contact details instead of going through a third party, i.e the museum.
“Good parking space”
I feel your paragraph on “good parking spaces” was unjust if you are implying this is what I had done. I can assure you this was not the case as I say this was the only option I was given or park in the public car park. What would you have done? Anyway if I have paid my entry fee and have abided by the rules, I am surely entitled to do what I like, as is everyone else!
“Good Spirit”
I total agree with this point and have always stopped to speak to people (too much sometimes if you ask my son’s) I hope that your point on this subject wasn’t just aimed at me just because I have spoken out on my experience! Let’s be honest when people compete, which I have also done and also judged upon outside of the mini scene, competitors do find it sometimes hard to communicate with fellow competitors as they are in competition after all. Normally I have a lot of time for the public and have found that once the judging is complete fellow competitors are more relaxed with each other and overall there is a “good spirit”.
“Cleaning kit”
In my opinion show n shine and concours are two totally different classes. You should not have a SnS and judge it on concours conditions. This should have been billed as concours for beginners! SnS to coin a phrase is exactly what it says on the tin Show and then shine not a full concours clean which this one was judged upon! So for that reason I took what I thought I needed and nothing else. Space in a mini is at a premium and in a boot which is 3inches smaller than others it’s of extra importance only to take the bear minimum. Or though I did see hoovers being passed around in the concours area so maybe not everyone is as prepared as you!
“Judging”
Your point on judging and the comments you hear about” the same one’s winning”, what ever happened to Master Class? The best move up and the rest, including beginners get their chance. Also why not have a judge’s only class? I think the real taboo question here is why the judges are also competitors? This seems to be the point I hear over and over and have done for years .I see that this issue has been talked about before on this forum and you have commented also so it’s a point of concern sorely? I will stick my neck out on this one from my personal experience I parked next to a judge once at a show. Great I thought I will learn what’s it’s all about I was surprised to see the total lack of effort put into the cleaning and prep , then when it came time to be judged the judge came over to the car and the first question asked was what class are you judging? Yours came the reply! Then they just spoke about holidays / friends just chit chat really. I then watched the judge go about their job I was very surprised to see over half the points they look at were not carried out ie underside, boot ,engine in detail ,headlining/ sun visors…. But on other cars in this section including mine all these points where checked! Guess who won the class? And vice versa! I think the point a lot of people find hard to understand and feel they can’t comment on is how can you judge and compete in the same show. Your ref to top football teams and tennis players always winning, imagine the outrage if they fielded their own referee or umpire how can they be impartial?
That brings me back to your point on “good spirit”, after I won my class and best in show at mitp a few years ago at the next show I attended, the same judge (I previously parked next to) couldn’t wait to dis my car within hearing distance of me and my sons, not a very pleasant experience but I bit my lip. I understand everybody is entitled to their own opinion and what you like and are passionate about are other peoples dislike and if you show your car you should expect this. What I didn’t expect was when I got 2nd place in class at the 50th birthday show in Birmingham when I went to collect my prize I was the only person that the same judge refused to shack my hand! I guess your face only fits if you’re in the “click”.
Can you guess who didn’t judge my car on Sunday? I hope now you may understand my reasons behind my post and possible my lack of “good spirit” as you put it.
As I say I will still go to show’s with my mini and trailer but will only ever enter the concours if I am not given any other option to show. I guess I have the right to ask not to be judged?
I’m glad to hear you have had nothing but good experiences and hope this continues for you. Wishing you all the best and good luck with your shows in the future.
.


I'm sorry that yours and two others did not have a good experience in Concours but I do feel that this was the exception and the majority had a positive experience. One of the entrants in my class was new to showing and was given tips by other exhibitors, felt welcomed and enjoyed his day. I felt the layout worked well and encouraged the good atmosphere. Where Concours are more spread out, I feel that you can lose some of the atmosphere.

I agree that communication between the Museum and organisers could be improved as it seems that queries go through to the Museum rather than those on the ground organising the show. I am still struggling to see why you could not have parked your Mini with all the other Minis that were part of the wider show. Yes, there was parking for the general public without Minis away from the show, but all Minis are part of the show so you could have join in that way. I think I may have missed something obvious here, as I just can't see what the problem with bringing your Mini to the Gaydon and parking up with all the other Minis. That way you would have avoided all this, not worried about Concours or Show 'n' Shine, chatted to other enthusiasts and enjoyed the day. If I'm honest, I would not have entered Concours or Show 'n' Shine if I had not been serious about competing and I would like only those who want to complete to enter in future.

I do agree that there is a confusing between the terms Concours and Show'n'Shine. With our standard Mini, I expect Concours to mean that the Mini is in excellent condition, if it has been restored that it is to the highest standard (panel fit, paint, detail etc) and all the correct parts are there as well of course that it is prepared and and show to the highest standard. For me, Show'n'Shine means just that, that the Mini must be cleaned to the highest standard, but the actual build of the Mini and whether or not the correct oats are there or not, is not important. The Mini must just shine. Show'n'Shine at L2B is to a very high standard. However, I know that there is confusion in this area and not everyone agrees on what constitutes Concours and what is Show'n'Shine. I agree with the organisers that Show'n'Shine has a more approachable, friendly feel which is more likely to encourage beginners that Concours which can sound a bit daunting.

As to your point about judges also being competitors, from my experience this is the normal in all fields of showing. When I showed my Bassets, I was judges by other breeders, if fact I think without exception, dog judges will also own, show and breed dogs or have done so for many years previously. You need people who really know the business to judge at the top level and I feel those who have been there (and may continue to be there) are best qualified to judge. Personally, I have not experienced any favouritism. I would also say that I am not the type of person with a face whose fits, because that is not my style - I like being my own person and have never felt the need to fit in. If I do not like the way that sometime is being managed or the way people behave, I will politely say so, but in a way to try and improve the situation.

It sounds to me that there is some history between you and one or two of the judges which I am not privy to (or particularly need or want to be) and that line behind some of the issues that you had.




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