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Historic Rally Clubman Project


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#856 rally1380

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 04:22 PM

Just read this from start to finish what a brilliant read
I have a MK2 Escorts that I use for road rallying and Targas as well as doing some historic events

I know a few people you Mentioned and we have been at same events as each other in the past
Was at the devils own this year

Also graham c on here is a familiar name its luke with the red mk2 friends with Ali Procter and Andrew fish

Hope you get the car rebuilt into the new shell

I was in a similar place last year when I wrapped the rear end of my mk2 round a concrete post
Ended up rebuilding the whole car took best part of a year


My next project will be a clubman once my new garage is built
You have given me a lot of inspiration
Best of luck

 

Thank you. Best of luck with your build (garage and clubman).  I promise the new shell of mine will get rebuilt into at some point....just need to decide on the cage really and then pull my finger out.



#857 keefr22

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 06:49 PM

Evening Dave, great news that you're back competing, those cups will soon be filling your trophy cabinet again!

 

And glad to hear the Ibiza will soon be up & running again!

 

Funny thing too - we stuck some fresh fuel in ours over Christmas, and - after we remembered to turn the fuel pump on! - it started more or less first time, for the first time in two years!

 

Quick question - is that Scooby a turbo with 4 wheel drive? Didn't know they were now allowed on road events.

 

 

More ramblings from my occasional 2017 trips out.................

 

Automark Farrington Trophy road rally

Subaru Impreza - the very same car (minus stickers) he had just competed on the Wales Rally GB National finishing in the top 40.

 

 

CukSBHVh.jpg

 

 

Photo Credit : Joseph Gilbertson

 

Keith



#858 rally1380

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:43 PM

Hi Keith. Glad to hear you're still fiddling with your clubby.

In answer to your scooby question.... No turbo but it does have a 2.5 na motor up front that went rather well. Turbos are allowed in road rallying up to a certain engine size.

It's a actually for sale if anyone is interested....

https://rover.ebay.c...tm/112772231275

#859 keefr22

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:50 PM

Turbos are allowed in road rallying up to a certain engine size.


Of course they are! I'd completely forgotten that they've allowed them for the modern shopping trolley engines! Shows how out of touch I am!

 

Unfortunately fiddling with the Clubby is only to get it ready to sell.... :(

 

Keith



#860 rally1380

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:05 AM

That's a real shame Keith. I was actually going to contact you a couple of weeks ago as I was tempted to sell the ibiza and buy one that is logbooked but I came to my senses when I saw just how clean your old shell is and that it genuinely is a rot free ibiza..... Seems daft not to keep it and use it.... Plus I've got that new engine gagging for a thrashing.

Edited by rally1380, 27 January 2018 - 10:06 AM.


#861 keefr22

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:08 PM

That's a real shame Keith. I was actually going to contact you a couple of weeks ago as I was tempted to sell the ibiza


I don't know whether to be happy or sad about that Dave. Sad because I'd have snatched your hand off to buy it back and happy because 'her indoors' would probably have given me some right grief when I took out a loan to do so....!!  O_O

 

Seriously though, glad the green meanie will get used as it should!

 

Keith



#862 Avtovaz

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:08 PM

oh right! didnt realise you had a build thread on here! Will read tomorrow! I was car 13 on the automark!



#863 minisi35

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 10:35 AM

Good to see you back Dave , sounds like we’ve had similar issues

#864 rally1380

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 03:32 PM

 

That's a real shame Keith. I was actually going to contact you a couple of weeks ago as I was tempted to sell the ibiza


I don't know whether to be happy or sad about that Dave. Sad because I'd have snatched your hand off to buy it back and happy because 'her indoors' would probably have given me some right grief when I took out a loan to do so....!!  O_O

 

Seriously though, glad the green meanie will get used as it should!

 

Keith

 

 

Yes it certainly will Keith.  Plan is to sort out the running gear side of things ASAP (i've a deadline to hit as the family is expanding again!) and then maybe try and do some Targa's over the summer.  Then the goal will be to get the car logbooked and do some single venue stage events......quite like the idea of doing something local like the Neil Howard Stages at Oulton and driving there, lobbing some tyres on and doing the event....then all being well with my engine building skills!!!!.....drive back. 



#865 rally1380

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 11:14 AM

ROLL CAGE RESEARCH..............

 

Ever since I picked up the shell I've had it in my head I want to build something special. I don't want the car to be 'as it was', I want it faster, stronger and lighter....and ultimately....better.  I know it was a nice car, don't get me wrong, and if I hadn't had the accident it would still take pride of place in my garage and the trophy shelf would probably be a bit fuller......but that wasn't the case, so the evolution needs to happen.

 

First thing on the to do list (and the expense list!) is the roll cage.  I'm still unsure exactly what to do with this as I still have the old cage from the car (minus the harness bar as that met an angle grinder and ended up in the now sold puma) so that could go straight in.....I even kept the plates from the floor and arches!.

 

But seeing as I want to take the car stage rallying and compete in the HRCR Minisport Cup, I think I'd like something a bit more substantial around me and because this is kind of the first thing that needs doing, this is why the build has really failed to gain any sort of momentum.

 

A few things I have learnt doing my research - homologated or certificated cages are not actually needed and a bit of a red herring. If you follow the MSA Blue Book by the letter and build the cage to the exacting specs written in black and white, then the car can go and get it's MSA Logbook (soon to become Passport) no problem and compete on stage events simple as.  Obviously cage manufacturers don't want you to know that, but after some digging it really makes sense.  Where a homologated cage comes into it's own is if the rules change in the future - then you can still by right use that homologated cage without issue....whereas if I was in that situation with a 'home brew' cage, i'd have to change it to comply with the new rules.* This is very relevant now as the rules about roof and windscreen supports will change as of 2019 making it mandatory in some cases to have a diagonal or a cross in the roof - something my SD bolt in cage does not have.  There will also be the need to have an extra diagonal placed in the cage from the very top of the A pillar bend to the base of that leg triangulating that section and making it stronger....this is dependant on cage design and a few other things so check out the Blue Book and tinterweb for exacting details. 

 

*This is how I understand the rules and what I have been told by Safety Devices and the MSA Technical bods....please do not treat this as gospel.

 

 

 

 

Even with that information, i'm still no closer to deciding what I actually want from my future cage.  The multipoint bolt in SD cage seems a good option, but I hate the door bar arrangement and it's a heavy cage (as cages go). The SD bolt in 6 pointer I have isn't sufficient so will be shelved for a future project. The SD weld in cage (pictured below) is an option and is a good price. It's CDS rather than T45 so is heavier, but does cover a few bases.  The only thing with homologated cages like this one, is if I choose to change the cage and put in pukka X door bars then the homologation is void so I might as well build my own cage........ Correct???  Again i'm not a fan of the SD door bar option here.....yes i'm fussy!

 

 

Vqo1WyCh.jpg

 

 

 

Next up is the Custom cages offerings.  I'm going to focus on the one they call their 'historic' cage pictured below.

 

RqWwjj4h.jpg

 

 

I quite like this cage and it's the one that Endaf Owens fits to all those snazzy FIA appendix K historic mini race cars you see blatting around Goodwood. The only niggle I have with it is it's expensive (Near as dam it a grand) and I have heard some sketchy rumours of CC, but I will stress, this was hearsay and by no means fact or even my opinion, but it did come from 2 completely separate sources so maybe there is something in it. Another advantage to this cage is it's homologated and because I wouldn't need to change anything i'd be good for everything in theory.

 

 

Some photo's I've found online of the same CC cage installed.........

 

HpDmugQ.jpg

 

SXkZN1q.jpg

 

 

 

Then there was this white shelled cage I found.....unsure what this cage is as it seems to be a mixed bag of details, but thought i'd share it because it's quite a neat setup and I might 'borrow' a few details from it.

 

 

 

ENC16qv.jpg

 

 

 

Then this photo popped up on my Facebook feed from Harry Hockley Motorsport. It's a cage they have installed for a customer.  I have never seen a cage where the B pillar roll over hoop sits in front of the rear companion bins. Nice neat cage although i'd want a higher harness bar for HANS device compatibility I think and i'm unsure why the door bars are mounted the way they are (bolted) but certainly something to use as research.....

 

5bfNkgK.jpg

 

 

 

 

Thoughts peeps..........??????



#866 minisi35

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 07:49 AM

Personally I like the first cage as it triangulates to the front subframe but I do prefer the cross bar door bars on the second picture. With more side protection you could use lightweight doors. With a fully welded in cage it will be super strong and in an accident then strength is a must

To me the last picture would hamper the seat mounting options

#867 rally1380

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 10:27 AM

Personally I like the first cage as it triangulates to the front subframe but I do prefer the cross bar door bars on the second picture. With more side protection you could use lightweight doors. With a fully welded in cage it will be super strong and in an accident then strength is a must

To me the last picture would hamper the seat mounting options

 

Hi Si. Yeah I'm with you on all those points.  With the triangulation to the front subframe, i'd want that so it is bolt on rather than welded so if it was deemed 'not period' it could be unbolted. Definitely prefer the door cross bars as they would offer way more protection with a side impact and they are how the current WRC cars have theirs so figure it's probably the way to do it.

 

I think what I will have to do is decide what features I want from the different cages available and make a cage from all those details.



#868 MIJ

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 02:09 PM

The minisport 'junior' car has a nice cage in it. Had a look at the weekend and it looks a nicely put together weld in cage, obviously it's only as good as the person who fitted it, but it did look quite substantial. Having done stage rallying in the past, the rules seem to increase all the time, I believe new fire extinguisher rules are in now too? I'm sure you know but the seats and harnesses etc have a life too.Attached File  IMG_3475.JPG   63.84K   4 downloads

#869 rally1380

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

The minisport 'junior' car has a nice cage in it. Had a look at the weekend and it looks a nicely put together weld in cage, obviously it's only as good as the person who fitted it, but it did look quite substantial. Having done stage rallying in the past, the rules seem to increase all the time, I believe new fire extinguisher rules are in now too? I'm sure you know but the seats and harnesses etc have a life too.

 

Now this is interesting. That is the Safety Devices Weld in cage with different door bars. When I chatted to Rob (at Minisport) when I collected my shell he did say that this would be his ideal combination as he was one of the doubters about the other cage manufacturer. The thing with doing this is it negates any Homologation that cage has as it changes the design.  Whether that is an issue for them is another thing, but I was wondering what that means in reality......probably what I have said a few posts up.

 

I think I would have put some harness bars in a bit higher if it was me.....maybe that is a job to do once they've mock fitted some seats to optimise the angle for HANS style devices??



#870 minisi35

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 07:47 PM


[/quote]
 
Hi Si. Yeah I'm with you on all those points.  With the triangulation to the front subframe, i'd want that so it is bolt on rather than welded so if it was deemed 'not period' it could be unbolted. Definitely prefer the door cross bars as they would offer way more protection with a side impact and they are how the current WRC cars have theirs so figure it's probably the way to do it.
 
I think what I will have to do is decide what features I want from the different cages available and make a cage from all those details.[/quote]
I haven’t read the current rules on it but surely safety should should overrule “period” modifications if they can be called that. I will have to find out my blue book and do some homework




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