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12" Tyres For Road Rallying


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#1 rally1380

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

Ok so after opening a can of worms with asking about uprated batteries, i thought another question was the order of the day.....


As can be seen from my build thread, i use my car as a competition car. The main focus of my competition will be road rallying (its good value and a really good nights sport!!!), but also intend on doing some historic road rallying (day time stuff) and autotests/autosolo's etc

For the historic road rallying and autotests i'll probably be using 10 inch wheels with standard and easily available tyres...thats the easy bit!

For 'proper' road rallying i'll be using 12 inch minilites to give a little bit more ground clearence and also extra room round the brakes for cooling.

I have plenty of cheap 4.5 x 12 (OEM rover) minilite style wheels and i've also got 4, 5 x 12 minators

Most of the quick cars (mk2 escorts and golfs) seem to either run something like Yoko A048 (which i can get in 12") or full on gravel tyres. I marshalled on the Bryniau rally last weekend and i think every car was using gravel tyres of some sort as the route was rough and muddy in places.....a really neat mk2 ecsort rolled on the first corner of the first competative section...expensive OOPS!!!!

For those that don't know....Road rally routes are run on metalled (tarmac) roads and also rough (sometimes unsurfaced) whites and also private land through fields, or farm yards etc etc.....some can be very wet and muddy!!! Majority of the route will be tarmac though.

As far as i can see my options are 165/60/12 Yoko (A539 or A048R) or Falken ZE912.......favouring A539's from this list

or 145/70/12 tyres - either normal or winter spec.

I was considering Maxsport RB1 gravel tyres, but have been advised that these can overheat on tarmac. So figure these are probably a gravel only tyre really and won't last too long on the longer tarmac sections.

I do like the look of Hankook Winter Icept 145 70 12's as the tread looks good for both road and rough(ish) use....Anyone ever use these? would love to hear some feedback.

Yokohama used to make a 145 70 12 winter tyre but Minisport seem to have removed them from website

So my question is am i missing any options?

Would like to hear feedback on winter tyres from our continental cousins as they seem more widely used over there where they get proper winters....Do they offer good grip on tarmac too?

Has anyone used Kingpin KMSG M+S tyres??????

Cheers in advance everyone

#2 jeffm5150

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:01 PM

My [hopefully helpful] experience comes from running 12" A539s on Minitor wheels for local track days (on asphalt). I recently switched to 10x6" Minilite wheels with Hoosier HO-DTS. There were two drawbacks of the A539s that caused my decision to switch to the 10" Hoosiers.

1st was that, when compared to the 10" A008 or HO-TDS tires, the A539 had a significantly larger diameter ... in fact the 12" A539 has 4.25" larger circumference than the 10" Hoosier for comparison. This meant that I had more rubbing both at the front (when cornering) and at the rear (under compression). Here's a picture of the two tires stacked so you can get an idea of the overall size increase of the 12" tires: http://desertwave.co...g2_itemId=15238 Let me know if you can't see the pic and I'll post it somewhere else where you have better luck.

2nd drawback was the A539 tread - it is a great street tire but when the treads heated up from the asphalt they felt greasy due to the treads flexing under load. I would assume that they would perform well for your purposes as long as they weren't overheating like they were for me.

Good luck - I hope my comments help you out.

#3 minispaniard

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:22 AM

A quick search on Google for Kingpin KMSG threw this as the first result
http://forum.minicoo...ead.php?t=12476

Aaron Lilicrap used a Mini for this year Endurance Rally Championship, I guess he used Colways as it mas the only tyre elligible for the championship.
Owen Turner flew in a Mini too in the first round, the Xpart, then he said he wouldn't use a Mini anymore for Endurance...

I was considering getting a set of these for the winter. Nankangs SV2 are cheap winter tyres with a similar pattern to the Hankook you mentioned, at that price they may worth a go (?)... I just noticed they've gone up in price in the last couple of weeks

http://www.mytyres.c...o=110&ranzahl=4

#4 rally1380

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:05 AM

A quick search on Google for Kingpin KMSG threw this as the first result
http://forum.minicoo...ead.php?t=12476

Aaron Lilicrap used a Mini for this year Endurance Rally Championship, I guess he used Colways as it mas the only tyre elligible for the championship.
Owen Turner flew in a Mini too in the first round, the Xpart, then he said he wouldn't use a Mini anymore for Endurance...

I was considering getting a set of these for the winter. Nankangs SV2 are cheap winter tyres with a similar pattern to the Hankook you mentioned, at that price they may worth a go (?)... I just noticed they've gone up in price in the last couple of weeks

http://www.mytyres.c...o=110&ranzahl=4


Yeh i saw the KMSG thread whilst researching, but wanted to hear actual 'from the horses mouth' feedback from someone who has used them

Colway's eh????....where did he get them from because they've been out of business since 2007 according to tyre monkey....shame as they do 10" and 12"

Nankangs - again would like someone who's used them to let us know what they thought....still prefer the look of the hankooks (but not the price)

cheers tho.

#5 CMXCVIII

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:30 AM

Nankangs - again would like someone who's used them to let us know what they thought....still prefer the look of the hankooks (but not the price)

cheers tho.


I discovered the Nankang brand because they were already fitted to my Mini and I've found them surprisingly impressive - but that's commuting around London with about 44bhp at the flywheel!

There is some small valid comparison, because surely in road rallying you still want tyres that will cope with sudden changes of road surface and conditions rather than ultimate grip?

Then again I am a little worried by the mytyres link that minispniard has posted! The Nankang Snow SV2 is "

A winter tyre for compact and middle-class vehicles".


Do a lot of road rallies take place in Waitrose car parks? :lol:



Jon


Edited by CMXCVIII, 19 November 2012 - 09:31 AM.


#6 jaydee

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

The king pin are an odd size, some tried that size in the past with not great results, i'd ask the old racers on here..

The hakka tires have a great reputation on gravel, but how do you travel to events with such a tire?

I'm also tempted by Maxsport but they're out of budget atm :(


I have tried hankook 145s and they're fine in the wet, usually those winter tyres are crap in the wet but hey they're good all rounder.

Never tried the nankangs and i'm planning to use them as M&S this winter as i'm on a tight budget, so i'd like to hear opinions too.

Rover cooper minilites are excellent all rounded, i love them, wider rims can give problems on wet and loose surfaces.
I'm looking for a set of 4.5x12" steelies to be used in the snow.

The A048 is the tyre when it comes to traction on tarmac, however they're not good to be used on whites and neither the 539s are
The 539 are overrated, slightly better in the wet and horrible on gravel/loose surface, where falkens are just fine.

#7 rally1380

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:40 PM


Nankangs - again would like someone who's used them to let us know what they thought....still prefer the look of the hankooks (but not the price)

cheers tho.


I discovered the Nankang brand because they were already fitted to my Mini and I've found them surprisingly impressive - but that's commuting around London with about 44bhp at the flywheel!

There is some small valid comparison, because surely in road rallying you still want tyres that will cope with sudden changes of road surface and conditions rather than ultimate grip?

Then again I am a little worried by the mytyres link that minispniard has posted! The Nankang Snow SV2 is "

A winter tyre for compact and middle-class vehicles".


Do a lot of road rallies take place in Waitrose car parks? :lol:



Jon


Middle-class my car certainly is not.......it shouts at chelsea tractors in a jobbish manner!!!

#8 rally1380

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

The king pin are an odd size, some tried that size in the past with not great results, i'd ask the old racers on here..

The hakka tires have a great reputation on gravel, but how do you travel to events with such a tire?

I'm also tempted by Maxsport but they're out of budget atm :(


I have tried hankook 145s and they're fine in the wet, usually those winter tyres are crap in the wet but hey they're good all rounder.

Never tried the nankangs and i'm planning to use them as M&S this winter as i'm on a tight budget, so i'd like to hear opinions too.

Rover cooper minilites are excellent all rounded, i love them, wider rims can give problems on wet and loose surfaces.
I'm looking for a set of 4.5x12" steelies to be used in the snow.

The A048 is the tyre when it comes to traction on tarmac, however they're not good to be used on whites and neither the 539s are
The 539 are overrated, slightly better in the wet and horrible on gravel/loose surface, where falkens are just fine.


Cheers for the breakdown of different tyres....was hoping you'd join in with a tyre i'd missed.

I do like the idea of using 4.5 x 12's as they are cheap if i bend one and easy to get hold of. I tried finding 2 more minators to make a set of 6 but alas that search ended empty handed....whereas i've got loads of 4.5's - cheaply too.

I reckon the main quality i'm looking for in a road rally tyre is

- good grip/handling in the dry

- Good in the wet (i will be doing welsh events after all!!!!)

- Ideally enough grip (open ish tread) to cope with a bit of mud and rough stuff

- Strong enough to cope with the rougher stuff.

- Not too expensive!!!!

The Maxsports were my favourite until Rob Jones on here said they go off very quickly on tarmac. He was using them to do the Cambrian rally which has a short tarmac stage around the Great Orme (Lllandudno) and said they didn't work too well round there....so i guess on a 150 mile (mostly tarmac) route they'd be a bit dicey to drive on by the end.

Thats kinda why i'm looking down the 'Winter' tyre route as they seem to have a more open tread pattern and being a bit softer, might offer decent grip.

I'm being realistic by the way....i don't expect a mini (even with a big lump in it - the engine, not the wife!!!) to be up there threadening the escorts and golfs, but i would like to give it a really good try and see how well we can do against some much faster cars.

Where's Cooperman with some words of wisdom?????

Does anyone know what tyres Aaron Lilicrap (great name!) actually used on endurance events??? Is he on TMF???

#9 minispaniard

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:08 PM

not Colways but Sportways are the ones used for the Endurance Rally Championship... my bad!

this is Aaron's team website, there may be a contact address somewhere http://www.warthogmotorsport.co.uk/

you can also find him on the British Rally Forum or it may be worth asking someone here http://www.endurance-rallying.co.uk/

#10 Cooperman

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:58 PM

Here I am. I'm fighting against a proposed wind turbine development near my gliding club and have been doing lots of media stuff (I was interviewed on Anglia ITV News last Thursday), so I've been a bit busy of late - sorry for not replying sooner.
On road rallies which use both surfaced and unsurfaced roads, the greates potential loss of time will be on the unsurfaced and downright rough bits. You will lose far more by using close-pattern tyres on the mud and rough than you'll lose by running 'knobblies' on the tarmac bits. I learned that from bitter experience when I did a Brecon M.C. Gremlin Rally a few years back. It was to be 70% tarmac and 30% unsurfaced so I ran Yoko 008's. I rolled it off the edge and down 14 ft onto its roof on a tightening muddy bend when the Yokos just clogged. I think I would have got round on knobblies. The following year I was second overall on the same event and first Historic using 165/70 x 10 'Nora' pattern knobbiles. These are NLA though as they were Colway produced.
I have used Maxsport knobblies on my Rover 214 Si and they are simply great, so if you can get some in 12" you should be fine. If a rally is 95% tarmac, then a 165/60 x 12 Falken would be good, although their wear rate is very high. But then rallying is expensive on tyres and I always reckon to allow for 2 new ones each event so long as you have no punctures.

#11 minisi35

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

Thought i would add my experience on this. In the past ive used Falken, Maxsports and colways.
Falkens ive found to be a good all round tyre and had one of my best results on them( though that could also been due to local knowledge) but they were only a couple of hundred miles old at the time

The Colways were the first gravel tyre i used and took a bit of getting used to, on the tarmac they tend to flex on the sidewall almost like understeer but its more like the tyre leaning off the rim. Once id got the hang of them and adapted my driving they were great and give alot of confidence espiecally on the muddy sections.

Maxsports ive used until i ran out of good ones, they are the best option in my book but they are noisy on the road. Ive never had a problem with them wearing but they do come in different compounds so im not sure which i had as they were 2nd hand

With speeds increasing on road rallies i can only see organisers using more and more whites so its a difficult one to way up. I totally agree falkens would be great if whites were a minimum, but until the night and the rout is plotted then you just dont know
I tend to run 2 spares which i know doesnt help with weight (but i drive to most of them so need to get home) but carry two non gravels as an option anyway. A battery gun and a modified scissor jack soon make light work of changing them anyway.

#12 rally1380

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:57 PM

Seems Maxsports are winning at the moment then.

I agree that it is inevitable that road rally organisers will use more and more whites or off road sections. I get the impression that competitors enjoy those sections the most...it is rallying at the end of the day.

Anyone know what are Sportways tyres are like?? picture on their website doesn't really off much in the way of info....doesn't look like much to me.

#13 Cooperman

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

I always carry two spares.
Back in the 60's & 70's on Motoring News Championship rallies everyone who was competitive ran knobblies. On the Datsun 240Z which I navigated we used Avon Arctic 175 width and we had some great results on them. Best of all they were free!

#14 rally1380

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

I always carry two spares.
Back in the 60's & 70's on Motoring News Championship rallies everyone who was competitive ran knobblies. On the Datsun 240Z which I navigated we used Avon Arctic 175 width and we had some great results on them. Best of all they were free!


Free tyres.....show off ;D

I'd be more than happy if someone wants to donate some 12" maxsports....always like a freebee!

I don't think much has changed with road rallying and the top cars using knobblies. I get the impression road rallying is going through a rebirth and is becoming very popular....easy to see why....its cheap (compared to stage rallying) and very competative....oh and you get a full cooked breakfast afterwards!!!!!! My brain is ruled by my stomach!

#15 jaydee

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

...oh and you get a full cooked breakfast afterwards!!!!!! My brain is ruled by my stomach!


You're not the one and only.. :whistling:




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