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#16 keefr22

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:16 PM

I had a couple more replies on Uphill Racers & they all said basically the same. And no-one has piped up to say they've ever been pulled up for not having a certificate, but I guess you can't read too much into that...

 

I have to admit that I find some things on the SD site as confusing as the Blue Book, e.g.

 

"Important Information on Homologation
No certification can be cancelled - cages certified before 1st January 2003 continue to be homologated.
If the car involved is not homologated itself by the FIA , it cannot be used for international events and therefore a certificate cannot be issued for a roll cage for that car.
 
There are , however , deviations from this in that some National events take place overseas as part of an International event but are run to the MSA National A regulations, which do not require roll cage certification."
 
I bolded the last part, as that's what's confusing me. Most club hillclimbs are run to National B, so if National A doesn't require certificates I can't for the life of me see why Nat B should?
 
Safety Devices also say this, as you quoted;
 
"Notes on homologation
 
Don't forget that you'll need to produce a genuine homologation certificate to race scrutineers..."
 
Race scrutineers? Are they using 'race' as a generic term or specifically as in motor racing?! And if it's a race car don't they need an MSA logbook, so the cage should have been checked in that process, shouldn't it?
 
Oh well, I've had enough of the Blue Book & other stuff for today, my head hurts & my copy of the latest Mini Magazine arrived today, so I'm off to read that instead!
 
K

Edited by keefr22, 29 April 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#17 keefr22

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:29 PM

I've just been reading the blue book K section. It seems the 38mm Safety Devices cage at least will need a certificate as it does not meet the basic requirements which include cages needing to be a minimum bar diameter of 45mm. At least that's the way I see it.

 
 
I've just read it again Tony;
 
 
"Minimum Dimensions (Ø in mm)
a) Mandatory tubular members
45 x 2.5 or 50 x 2.0
38 x 2.5 or 40 x 2.0 (For roll cages/bars approved
prior to 1.1.95).
b) Optional tubular members
38 x 2.5 or 40 x 2.0"
 
So, as SD say their Mini cage was homologated before 1.1.95, it does meet section K, & therefore shouldn't need a certificate according to the MSA e-mail. I think!!
 
But as you said to the OP, don't give up it really isn't that bad & I'm sure it'll be alright on the night!!
 
And now I really am shutting up for tonight!
keith

Edited by keefr22, 29 April 2013 - 10:30 PM.


#18 miniweights

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

Keith, you sound as confused as I am ;D You can see why they call it the blur book O_O

 

I have a copy of the Safety Devices 6 point bolt-in cage certificate, and it says it's valid from 8th jan 1981. The RAC Recognition number is 291. It meets section K as in the design structure and material used, but it's not 45mm tube. This is what leads me to think it will need a certificate.



#19 keefr22

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:42 PM

Keith, you sound as confused as I am ;D You can see why they call it the blur book O_O
 
I have a copy of the Safety Devices 6 point bolt-in cage certificate, and it says it's valid from 8th jan 1981. The RAC Recognition number is 291. It meets section K as in the design structure and material used, but it's not 45mm tube. This is what leads me to think it will need a certificate.

 
Or the grey book, which I also like! I'm not sure confused quite covers it...!!
 
But if your current Certificate says it's valid from 8/1/81, & section K says cages homologated before 1/1/95 are fine made from 38mm tube, then surely that's OK?
 
I've got a new worry now anyway. Whether I need a fuel sampling take off point....!!  :ohno:
 
Keith

#20 miniweights

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

Funny you should mention fuel sampling, I was reading that while I finding out about the cage lol.

 

Back to the cage certificate. It looks like I have the answer, at least for the Safety Devices cage anyway.

 

I asked the guy at the MSA another question...

 

Hi Joe,

 

Many thanks for your reply.

 

Just to confirm my situation. I have a Safety Devices homologated 38mm cage with diagonal for the Classic Mini, which has been re-painted. I have obtained a new homologation sticker from Safety Devices, but they have told me I also need to apply for an homologation certificate from the MSA.

 

Can you please advise if this is the case.

 

Many thanks

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

In this case it sounds like a copy of the Safety Devices certificate that you need. These are available from our sales department at a cost of £34. However, you will need to give us the homologation number which should be on the Safety Devices label. The certificate should be presented at scrutineering with the car.

 

Regards,

Joe Hickerton

Technical Administrator

The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Limited

+44(0)1753 765000

www.msauk.org



#21 keefr22

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

£34? Daylight robbery!! I have to admit that the latest reply you received doesn't fill me with confidence that they aren't confused too!! His reply "In this case it sounds like a copy of the Safety Devices certificate that you need" hardly sounds that definite to me?

 

All the replies I've had on Uphill Racers suggest that none of the regular competitors on there have ever been asked for a certificate, & there are no stories of people they know having had problems (as seems to be the case on many of the other threads!) And a couple of replies have suggested that as long as you do it to the Blue Book specs, then anyone can make their own cage so how could they get a certificate? Such as this one;

"The cage in my Davrian doesn't have a certificate and I ran that in modified - never had any problems.

It's more than a decade ago, but when I asked the scrutineer that did the log book about it he was of the opinion that a roll cage certificate was not required as anyone could make their own cage, provided they constructed it in a way that complied with the requirements in the book."

 

I think we're just going to see what happens when we turn up for scrutineering at Epynt, & trust to luck that the scrute is happy with the FIA sticker on the cage!



#22 miniweights

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:23 AM

That reply gave me the same feeling Keith. If we can't get a confident answer from the technical department of the MSA, then where does that leave us!? O_O

 

It looks a bit like...You don't know, we're not sure, but send us 34 quid anyway, and we'll send you a copy!? But I thought Safety Devices said a scrute won't accept copies O_O



#23 keefr22

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:46 PM

That reply gave me the same feeling Keith. If we can't get a confident answer from the technical department of the MSA, then where does that leave us!? O_O

 

It looks a bit like...You don't know, we're not sure, but send us 34 quid anyway, and we'll send you a copy!? But I thought Safety Devices said a scrute won't accept copies O_O

 

Absolutely Tony - for £34 we'll send you a copy that no scrute will ever ask to see - probably! I think SD probably mean a copy of the MSA's copy? I'm going back a while now, but I did stump up £25 for a cert for my 924 when I had it (unfortunately never did an event in it to see if I'd need the cert), & all it was was a crude handdrawn picture (presumably by Rollcentre) of the cage with an MSA stamp on it - so that maybe makes it an 'official' copy? But I really don't know...!!

 

keith



#24 adamg1380

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:28 PM

The MSA Blue Book is online now. http://msauk.org/sit...sp?article=1158

 

For Sprints and Hillclimbs, it depends what class you're competing in. I run in Class 1A (Road Going Series Production) and you don't need a roll cage, and if you have one it has to be a bolt in one, you can't stiffen the car with the cage. For mod prod you do need a cage with a sticker.

 

If you're running in road going, I spent ages checking regs for my car and have run it quite a few times, so any questions let me know.

 

Cheers, Adam



#25 keefr22

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:56 PM

The MSA Blue Book is online now. http://msauk.org/sit...sp?article=1158
 
For Sprints and Hillclimbs, it depends what class you're competing in. I run in Class 1A (Road Going Series Production) and you don't need a roll cage, and if you have one it has to be a bolt in one, you can't stiffen the car with the cage. For mod prod you do need a cage with a sticker.
 
If you're running in road going, I spent ages checking regs for my car and have run it quite a few times, so any questions let me know.
 
Cheers, Adam


We're running in mod prod. Cage has an FIA sticker but it's the MSA certificate that all the confusion's about! From the e-mail tony received, it seems the MSA is as confused as the rest of us! I've had no further replies on Uphill Racers, but my feeling from the ones I have had is that scrutineers apparently don't usually ask for cage certificates. So that's what I'm hoping anyway...!! I'm also fairly sure that a friend that runs in Libre has a non homologated cage & he's been running with it for years...

Edited by keefr22, 10 May 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#26 jonny f

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:13 PM

Dragging this back up to the top again!

 

I'm hoping to get a cage built soon and reading the regs it needs to be 45mm? If i'm not mistaken.

 

If i have things coming of the cage like pedal box mounts and a steering column mount that is ok to be smaller diameters?



#27 keefr22

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:16 AM

 Dragging this back up to the top again!
 
I'm hoping to get a cage built soon and reading the regs it needs to be 45mm? If i'm not mistaken.
 
If i have things coming of the cage like pedal box mounts and a steering column mount that is ok to be smaller diameters?


Oh no, the nightmare returns....!!  :D

 

I would say from reading the Blue Book that you have it right, But personally, from now on, if I'm going to be doing anything major to the car like your thinking of, I'd get in touch with my local scrute (preferably the one who'll be log booking the car) first to get his/her OK. Might save a lot of stress & work...!!



#28 jonny f

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:28 PM

 

 Dragging this back up to the top again!
 
I'm hoping to get a cage built soon and reading the regs it needs to be 45mm? If i'm not mistaken.
 
If i have things coming of the cage like pedal box mounts and a steering column mount that is ok to be smaller diameters?


Oh no, the nightmare returns....!!  :D

 

I would say from reading the Blue Book that you have it right, But personally, from now on, if I'm going to be doing anything major to the car like your thinking of, I'd get in touch with my local scrute (preferably the one who'll be log booking the car) first to get his/her OK. Might save a lot of stress & work...!!

 

 

I'll try that. Where can i find numbers for a local scrute? there a list somewhere?



#29 keefr22

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:29 PM

I'll try that. Where can i find numbers for a local scrute? there a list somewhere?


Yep, appendix 4f of the Blue Book. On line here;

http://www.msauk.org...sp?article=1158

scroll down to 403-421 to find it, for some reason I can't get a direct link to work.

#30 jonny f

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:00 PM

 

I'll try that. Where can i find numbers for a local scrute? there a list somewhere?


Yep, appendix 4f of the Blue Book. On line here;

http://www.msauk.org...sp?article=1158

scroll down to 403-421 to find it, for some reason I can't get a direct link to work.

 

 

Thank you!






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