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Fitted Electric Ignition To My Classic Mini And Having Problems?


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#1 brendanmockett

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

Hello,

I recently fitted a new electric distributor to my classic mini mayfair 1992 998cc, and when its running its great. However starting it is a different story. It's like the starter motor is struggling to turn it over but it was fine before? I took it to a mechanic and he said the timing is set correctly and it has nothing to do with that. Has anyone got an idea?

Many thanks, Brendan



#2 lrostoke

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

sounds like may be to advanced..

 

Mark the position of the dizzy against the block and try turning the dizzy anticlockwise slightly.

 

If no different you can return to original position



#3 KernowCooper

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:08 PM

Yep put my money on it being to far advanced, did he check it ?



#4 brendanmockett

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:36 PM

thanks for your replies,

If you put it one way it has this starting problem but runs really well but if you put it the other way it starts fine but runs roughly, it spits unburnt fuel and backfires a little when you put your foot down



#5 lrostoke

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

could be wrong advance curve on the dizzy, sounds like not getting enough advance at higher revs



#6 KernowCooper

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:10 PM

Describe the ignition kit you have a distributor or any pictures, do you have a timing light you can check it with?



#7 brendanmockett

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:43 AM

http://item.mobilewe...6207&cmd=VIDESC - this is the distributor i bought, do you think it could be anything to do with the ignition coil? And i can get my hands on a timing light however the timing isnt out

#8 Yoda

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:26 AM

Doubt  it would be the coil. Either the advance curve is incorrect or the vac advance may not be operating. I assume you have a good condition vac advance pipe connected?

 

To check if it is working, take the vac pipe off the dizzy and blank off the pipe. see if it makes any difference, if it does then that part is prob OK therefore the curve is incorrect, if no difference then the vac advance is suspect.

 

Hope this helps.


Edited by Yoda, 22 June 2013 - 07:28 AM.


#9 dklawson

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

Since the problems started when you fit the electronic distributor your focus should be there, not on the coil.

 

Temporarily fit your old distributor and set the timing.  If the car is easy to start and drives like it did before, you know it has something to do with the new dizzy.  Once you confirm this, try the following.

 

After you have your old dizzy installed and the car is easy to start, turn the engine over by hand until the crank timing marks line up,  Any mark will do but arbitrarily let's say to use 0 degrees (TDC). Only turn the engine over in the normal direction of rotation, do not turn it backwards if you overshoot the timing mark.  With the pointer lined up at TDC remove the distributor cap and notice EXACTLY where the rotor is pointing.  Lower the dizzy cap back into place and notice EXACTLY where the rotor is pointing relative to the plug wire terminals on the cap.  Put a piece of tape on the dizzy cap to mark this location and pencil mark the tape to get the rotor location identified more closely.

 

Now put the new electronic dizzy back in following the procedure you used to install it the first time.  Set the timing FIRST where it is has been easy to start.  As above, turn the engine by hand to TDC and look at where the rotor is pointing,  Make the pencil/tape marks on the dizzy cap to show where the rotor is pointing.  Now set the timing where the engine runs well but has proven hard to start.  Again, mark the rotor position. 

 

Compare the pencil mark on the old distributor cap to the two marks on the new cap.  My suspicion is that the new dizzy has a quality control issue where the pickup module or the ring on the dizzy shaft was made incorrectly.  I anticipate that the module fires at the wrong time relative to where the rotor is in the cap.  This isn't quite the same as a timing issue.  You can get the timing great but if the rotor is in the wrong spot when the module fires the coil, the rotor will have a hard or impossible time passing that to the plugs.  The old Crane/Allison ignition systems were optical and they had a slot to allow changing the position of the sensor under the cap to adjust the firing point relative to rotor position.  It was effective but confusing to customers.



#10 KernowCooper

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:40 AM

If it was fine before and now its got a problem then it still points towards timing, when starting the vac advance does nothing so if its not starting now well and did before speak to Powersparks and ask there opinion, still sounds like it is to far advanced



#11 The Freak

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:19 PM

This is exactly the same problem I am having.

 

I have tried all of the above soloutions but nothing seems to work. 

 

The picture you supplied is the exact same dizzy I bought.  I sent mine back and got another (though it looks like the same one) which I am assuming simonbbc tested.  However, is it possible this isnt the correct distributor?

 

Please let me know if you solve your problem as I am desperate to get mine fitted as i can see the benefits to having electronic ignition.  Though there doesn't seem to be any benefits at the moment.

 

As you say, when it is timed up correctly, the car turns over as though the battery is flat.  Soemtimes it gets going, but I have also had it where the starter then just clicks and I can't get it going without a push start.

 

When I turn the dizzy anticlockwise, the engine spins freely but won't fire.  Eventually I turn it clockwise and it does fire and runs quite nicely.  The problem comes when I stop the engine and try to start it again... Back to not turning over.

 

Kernow Cooper has been helping me but I am really puzzled. 

 

I thought it might be the mixture being all over the place, then why would the pointed dizzy fire up?

 

My engine is meant to be a 998, the engine code matches to that but I am led to believe it has some kind of metro head or bits on it and it has been bored out to 1275/1293.  Could the compression of the engine be preventing the ignition from working?  That sounds ridiculous as the points system has to be weaker than the elctronic unit...doesn't it?



#12 KernowCooper

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:01 PM

What your describing is to much advance, I can't see what if set correct the engine wont turn over if set at 5degs static  BTDC with the electronic triggered distributor? If I was closer I'd fit and time it for you and troubleshoot the problem.

 

Describe how your doing the initial installation regarding the static 5degs initial setup



#13 The Freak

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:20 PM

Cheers for the offer, I wish you were closer as I'm pulling my hair out.

 

I will take you through what I have done.

 

  1. Engine running normally with points dizzy.  fires up and spins freely. 
  2. Take dizzy cap off, into 2nd gear, handbrake off, rotate engine until No.1 cylinder at TDC.  Check timing mark on crank pulley.  Rotor points to no.1 lead.  Mark this up (just incase nedd to re-fit).
  3. Undo dizzy fork bolt, disconnect wires and withdraw dizzy through space left by grill.
  4. Move rotor on new dizzy into roughly no.1 position, slide dizzy into slot.  Engage the drive and tweak dizy until rotor roughly points to no.1 lead. 
  5. Put cap on and change coil including by-passing ballast resisitor.
  6. Lock dizzy down and try to fire up.
  7. Engine just won't turn over, or, if it does it is a struggle as though the battery is flat.
  8. On one of the turns it somehow fires up.  Runs perfectly.  Took for a drive, drove brilliantly.  Checked timing at 750rpm, with vac adavance disconnect and hole in carb blocked.  Timing shows 5-7 BTDC.  Fit vac advance, rev engine and observe timing change to no more than 20-22 BTDC (it is never much lower than this).
  9. Stop engine and try to fire it up.  Flat battery syndrom.
  10. Loosen dizzy bolt and rotate dizzy anticlokwise as suggested to retard timing.  Engine evntually begins to spin freely but won't fire.  Using strobe light whilst spinning the dizzy shows the timing is retarded (loads).  Turning the dizzy clockwise it eventually fires.  Runs poorly.  When I stop it and try to start it it is flat battery style again.
  11. Removed electonic dizzy and re-fitted points version.  Guessed its location, turned the key and the engine fired starigth away.  Checked timing at it was about 7-8BTDC.

I will gladly pay you to come and sort it.

 

Cheers



#14 KernowCooper

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:41 PM

I'm 300 miles down in Cornwall so unless your down for a trip.......

 

Just read your install and your checking the timing at 750rpm which your getting 5-7egs advance, increase the speed to a 1000rpm and check the timing with the advance off then and see what you have then, If the timing is advanced more than the 5-7degs you had at 750rpm it points towards a weak spring which controls the initial advance.I always do all mine at 1000rpm vac off,

 

Is the  trigermodule on the bass plate secure? and check the air gap between the black trigger ring and the red module, the black ring should not be touching the red module a air gap should exist but there is no specific air gap given by powersparks.



#15 The Freak

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

Cheers,

 

I will have a good look at the bits tomorrw if I get chance and I will try and take some pics.

 

What I don't understand is why, when the engine does fire it runs brilliantly and the timing is spot on.  The problem is the intial rotating.  It doesn't seem possible that this can happen.  It has to be sooooo far advanced to cause a compression problem, doesn't it? 

 

It all points to the dizzy being faulty, but then to see another similar problem makes me question that something isn't quite right with what we're doing at the set up. 

 

It would be interesting to hear what Brendan in th efirst post did to rectify it.






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