39 replies to this topic

[Al-man]

You could alternatively as an exercise shim the races apart.

Before everyone jumps on the comment - the OP could hardly do any worse than the manufacturer did and possibly a great deal better.

 I thought about using shims between the spacers, but............

 

Actually, i wont jump LOL, i think it is good engineering practice to take up the slack with shims as once it is set correctly and torqued up nothing can move! No different really to steering swivels. plus it is on the rear and not subject to the same types of load as the front wheel bearings. I would have no qualms doing this, at least it is not like one i car i worked on, i found NO spacer in the front bearings and tinfoil packed in the rear one side. No wonder the guy came to me saying " i dont understand what the noise is, i put new wheel bearing in all round last week"

 

DOH!

although it is good engineering practice, I would need a selection of shims of the correct diameter which I don't have unfortunately.

 

 

Al, did you get these bearings from minisport by any chance??? I had exactly the same problem as you, and couldn't tighten the hub nut up to the required torque!!!, its the manufacture mate, the hub nuts needs to be done up toe the specified pre load, although the split pin will stop the nut from turning it is very very bad practice(one i did not want t out the other people in my car, especially my son at risk), I ordered some timken ones from somerford minis and they worked fine

Take a read of this..

http://www.theminifo...dhub-wont-move/

 I bought the bearing kit from a motor factors, but have now ordered a kit with genuine Timken tapered bearings which should solve the problem.

I had managed to find a bearing supplier who could have ordered me a pair of original ball bearing type bearings but these were more expensive than Timken tapered ones.

[psychobob]

I just had the same problem with rear tapered bearings. if you tightened them up to the right torque setting, you couldn't turn the back wheel. I loosened them off enough so it would turn without any noticeable play in the wheel but they only lasted 2000 miles. I've just replaced them with new a new  skf ball bearing set instead and its absolutely fine. I figure there must be some dodgy bearings about with a too narrow spacer piece.

[Jono_h]

Just a quick alternative to the wheel bearing issue.....

Since getting my Elf back n the road, I've noticed a clunk as I've first pulled away, but not spotted an issue.

MOT'd last week and got an advise on brakes binding. Took it for a run the other weekend, and you could feel the binding as you coasted up to the roundabout.

Anyway it turns out that one of the front brake hoses is knackered internally. The clunking was the brakes releasing as i reversed off the drive, but the damage has worsened so that now when the brake is applied, the fluid is trapped in the hose and the brake won't release.
Could be that you're at the intermittent stage where the brake binds, but jacking the car up releases the restriction in the hose.

[Al-man]

Could be that you're at the intermittent stage where the brake binds, but jacking the car up releases the restriction in the hose.

 Thanks for the suggestion, but the van rolls easily on the ground.

[Al-man]

Fitted new Timken bearings to hub today, but still have the same problem. I tightened the hub nut gradually while turning the hub, but when tightened to 60lb torque the hub was stiff to turn, so I backed off the nut a little to align split pin hole, it then tuned a bit easier but would not spin or turn smoothly. With the wheel on I could spin the hub, so after adjusting the brakes I took the van for a short run hoping the bearing would bed in. The hub was hot when I returned, while the other side was only just warm.

 

I waited until the hub had cooled, then slackened off the brake adjuster until there was no shoe contact and took the van for another short journey. The hub still became hot, so I jacked up the van and found that the brakes were dragging very slightly. I removed the clevis pin from the handbrake linkage, but this made no difference. So could it be that the brake hose has partially collapsed inside causing a gradual build up of pressure so the brake shoes are not fully released after a journey. When cold the brakes don't stick at all when the footbrake is released.

 

The hub was still quite stiff to turn without the drum, so I tried a spare hub I had with the old type bearings and found that this was not so stiff to turn when tightened. The wheel spun freely when cold, so I took the van out for another run but found the hub was hot and the brakes rubbing slightly on my return.

The original hub & ball bearings had spun freely, but were worn which is why I replaced them with the first set of tapered bearings. The second set of bearings (Timken) also had a gap between the spacers, only 3 thou this time, but also too tight to turn when hub night tightened to specified torque.

I am wondering if these Timken bearings are genuine although they are marked Timken NP 548547 Canada.

 

It looks likely that the brakes are not quite right on the nearside rear, possibly a defective brake hose or return springs. The wheel was getting hot with the original bearings before I replaced various parts, and the brakes were wearing quickly on that side.

 

I am not sure what to try next, has anyone else had trouble with Timken bearings on mini rear hubs. I thought they would spin freely when tightened, but these don't.  Using he spare hub isn't really a solution as those old bearings are quite noisy too.

[Captain Mainwaring]

The bearings need to be a free running fit....nothing else will do. 

 

http://www.timken.co.../Pages/RIT.aspx

 

Is what they are - they certainly don't require any preload - the spacer needs not to give any "nip".

[Al-man]

Ok today I swapped Hub, brake drum, shoes and return springs from N/S/R to O/S/R but found the N/S/R wheel still gets hot after a short trip !!, the van rolls easily, but there is still just a slight drag on the nearside rear brake, the wheel will spin about one and a half turns. I think It looks more likely to be a partially collapsed brake hose, preventing the brake from fully releasing when driving. Unless anyone can suggest another cause ?

 

I re-fitted the hub with the new Timken bearing on the O/S/R, but this time I used the larger flat washer (that was with my spare hub) behind the hub nut. This must have spread the load better, as the hub was free to turn when the nut was tightened to the specified torque and didn't get hot after a run, so thats the bearing problem sorted   now just the nearside rear brake to fix

[Captain Mainwaring]

Ok today I swapped Hub, brake drum, shoes and return springs from N/S/R to O/S/R but found the N/S/R wheel still gets hot after a short trip !!, the van rolls easily, but there is still just a slight drag on the nearside rear brake, the wheel will spin about one and a half turns. I think It looks more likely to be a partially collapsed brake hose, preventing the brake from fully releasing when driving. Unless anyone can suggest another cause ?

 

I re-fitted the hub with the new Timken bearing on the O/S/R, but this time I used the larger flat washer (that was with my spare hub) behind the hub nut. This must have spread the load better, as the hub was free to turn when the nut was tightened to the specified torque and didn't get hot after a run, so thats the bearing problem sorted   now just the nearside rear brake to fix

 

 

No...it probably just put the load on the outer race - I bet there is detectable end float in the bearings now. 

[tiger99]

If the bearings have been too tight, they are inevitably damaged, and as well as having a very short life, may well run hot. Also, I seriously doubt that any bearing which has been removed from a hub, however carefully, will be undamaged and fit for re-use. But you may be lucky.

 

It is extremely unfortunate that you are probably caught up in what is most likely the supply of counterfeit parts, all too common these days. You should ideally take it up with the supplier, and if necessary, Trading Standards. (Yes I know, it is a lot of trouble, and I am not sure that in your position I would either.) It is time that a few people went to jail as a deterrent, and certain known disreputable suppliers were forced out of business, before someone is killed.

 

There is just one more possibility, the brakes are rubbing, or the bearings running badly, because the stub axle is slightly bent.

[A-Cell]

The bearings need to be a free running fit....nothing else will do. 
 
http://www.timken.co.../Pages/RIT.aspx
 

Is what they are - they certainly don't require any preload - the spacer needs not to give any "nip".

Those are cylindrical bearings. Mini wheel bearings use taper roller bearings and are designed to be Pre loaded. To carry both the radial loading and side thrust....
Did you mean this link
http://www.timken.co...es/default.aspx

[Al-man]

If the bearings have been too tight, they are inevitably damaged, and as well as having a very short life, may well run hot. Also, I seriously doubt that any bearing which has been removed from a hub, however carefully, will be undamaged and fit for re-use. But you may be lucky.

 

It is extremely unfortunate that you are probably caught up in what is most likely the supply of counterfeit parts, all too common these days. You should ideally take it up with the supplier, and if necessary, Trading Standards. (Yes I know, it is a lot of trouble, and I am not sure that in your position I would either.) It is time that a few people went to jail as a deterrent, and certain known disreputable suppliers were forced out of business, before someone is killed.

 

There is just one more possibility, the brakes are rubbing, or the bearings running badly, because the stub axle is slightly bent.

Maybe I could have phrased my last post better. I didn't remove the Timken Bearings and then refit them. After trying exchanging components from N/S to O/S, I replaced my spare hub on the O/S/R with the hub that had the new Timken bearings fitted. I checked the bearings for any sign of wear or overheating and they appeared to be undamaged. Using the larger flat washer from the spare hub the Timken bearings were free when tightened to the specified torque and did not get hot on a journey of about 7 miles. I will keep a check on them though.

 

The first set of tapered bearings I bought from a motor factors were not Timken, but cheaper imports and as others have also found not fit for purpose.  The Timken bearings I bought seem genuine as the part numbers match others I have seen on the net, but then again that's not absolute proof.

 

I hope now that replacing the brake hose will solve the brake problem and that it's not caused by a bent stub axle.

[Captain Mainwaring]

 

The bearings need to be a free running fit....nothing else will do. 
 
http://www.timken.co.../Pages/RIT.aspx
 

Is what they are - they certainly don't require any preload - the spacer needs not to give any "nip".

Those are cylindrical bearings. Mini wheel bearings use taper roller bearings and are designed to be Pre loaded. To carry both the radial loading and side thrust....
Did you mean this link
http://www.timken.co...es/default.aspx

 

 

 

Maybe so....but those are what he fitted - google the part number yourself. (Timken NP 548547 Canada.) These bearings are designed to contain limited end thrust - and are speced for applications like hook blocks etc. According to Timken the NP designation refers to special application bearings.

 

I thought ball bearings were used for a while too?

Edited by Captain Mainwaring, 14 August 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[A-Cell]

Ok Captain, well spotted, i missed the part no quote. So that is the first problem, what the OP described as taper roller were in fact cylindrical (the NP584547) and would never work as intended. Another lesson in only using genuine parts from trusted sources.
Yes they did also use ball bearings, which obviously take radial and hurst loads.
(As the Dad's army character Captain Mainwaring used to say "very good chaps, I wondered when one of you was going to spot that!"

[baldric]

brakes  

sounds like to me all of the cables hav goten seized  and not only that  maybe the brakes are adjusted too tight on that side  jack the whole lot up at the rear end  wheels of the deck   try and turn the wheals   you should barley hear the shoes rubbing   if too stiff slacken  them off  do one side at a time  now stab your foot on the brake pedal  this centralises the shoes on that  drum  now check again  if there is no noise / stiffness  in rotating the drum  adjust the shoe up one notch  do that  until you get a slight noise on the drum from the shoe  both sides to be done like that  with the same stabbing of the foot on the brake pedal  to centralising the shoes this is important  front wheals should be done the same   not if you have discs     BUT BEFORE DOING ALL THAT  free all cables off   important   get inside the drums  and free all the levers off  especially  the adjuster   (drop of wd 40  on the linkage in the drum )   do this sparingly   before  fitting  the drums back on   take the glaze off the shoes  with a piece of sandpaper ,,, then on the edge of the brake shoe  take the sharpness of the edge just a tad   all 8 shoes

 

keep the vehicle jacked up  hand brake time     operate the handbrake   hard   now go and check the rear drums again  with the handbrake off check that that both drums revolve freely     if one sticks on   you have a problem with the cable  go over the cable and check the central pull yoke  this is the most important part of the hand brake system if the cable is not free to move in the yoke  things get a little jammed up  and do not release propereley  (sticky)   through the lack of use and with plenty of moisture around  and road dirt this tends to happen   same happens to drums   DONE THAT   now try the handbrake again   pull the handbrake up  and relax the brake  check the drum   should have a tad swishing noise coming from the drum   if both sides are the same   ITS FIXED   hand brake adjust  the slack on the cable lever  should be about   3 to 4 notches   make sure there is oile on the handbrake linkages  and also where the cable fits into the  lever hand brake  don't half do the job  to doo all this is a couple of hours work   through the lack of use and dampness and rain   this sort of silly thing happens  do not overadjust  the whole system  years ago this sort of thing seizing  rarely  happened    these vehicles had daily use  and all those parts were in constant use   any way  I am going to sod off now

               baldrick ?

[baldric]

adjusting cone barings   tighten to a good pinch   slacken back one castle on the nut fit split pin in do not use graphite grease   for obvious reasons ,,,,