26 replies to this topic

[welldc]

 

I suppose if there's an incident blocking a lane or more the emergency services will have the option of driving from the opposite direction to the tailed back traffic, but is it not common for the whole carriageway to be shut for the Air Ambulance if it's that serious anyway?

But there can be many miles between junctions and inching through tailed back traffic even from the nearest junction to an incident presents a serious delay over running down the hard shoulder. The emergency services cannot approach from the opposite direction and run against the flow of traffic on a motorway, until the Police have already reached the scene from the conventional direction, closed off all lanes, and confirmed that there is no traffic between the scene and the next junction, which takes a significant amount of time.

As for air ambulances, generally one won't be dispatched until a land ambulance resource has already arrived on scene and deemed one to be neccesary and confirmed there is an appropriate landing site for one at the incident. They are also an extremely limited resource in the first place, generally with only one per county, so they're not always available when needed. Very few air ambulances can fly/land during the hours of darkness, nor can they fly/land in the fog/heavy rain when most serious motorway incidents occur. There's also no air fire engines to my knowledge, so the fire service would still have to push their way through tailed back traffic if someone is trapped and requires cutting from the wreckage. Due to the size and manoverability of fire appliances all lane running potentially presents bigger delays to the fire and rescue service than to the ambulance service.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

Getting a designated service to secure  the scene can be done from the opposite carriageway, but then you have both directions at a standstill. I have known Fire to stop adjacent to an incident, but on the other carriageway, and work over the barrier, but most of the new sections have a concrete barrier which is higher and wider.

 

As far as breakdowns go, tyres and fuel (or lack of!) account for a significant number of stops.

It is actually quite rare to see a broken down classic car.

 

A further concern is that the AA and RAC will not deal with a vehicle which is in a 'live lane'. Not sure about other breakdown organisations. I have yet to see what their policy is with regard to these new situations.

[Dan]

I suppose if there's an incident blocking a lane or more the emergency services will have the option of driving from the opposite direction to the tailed back traffic, but is it not common for the whole carriageway to be shut for the Air Ambulance if it's that serious anyway? Speed restrictions are a better option for increasing traffic flow, so creating an extra lane should be supplementary to that.
Tamworth , wonder if that wee small hours speed restriction is down to the night shift not being able to watch all the cameras?

It's commonly thought to be it's because they can only legally turn the speed cameras on when the speed limit is reduced. Same on the M25. Due to my odd work I am often running round the M25 at 2 or 3 in the morning and it's very common for the speed limit to be set to 40. It's not managed motorway spec in Surrey, just variable speed limit with cameras, they don't have to monitor CCTV if it's not managed. I'll be the only car I can see for miles ahead or behind, no fog, no rain, just plain empty road, and I'm sat there at 40 for ages. Amazing how often they forget to clear the speed limit when an incident has passed!

And further to the above, even once the Police have shut and cleared a stretch of motorway, emergency vehicles are still only allowed to face the correct way. They have to reverse back from the next junction and can't turn round so it's not exactly quick. My Wife took her ambulance to a scene on a motorway driving the wrong way from a junction once, helpful-as-ever traffic plod decided pulling her to one side and threatening to prosecute was the right thing to do at a multi vehicle incident.

Edited by Dan, 26 April 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[AVV IT]

And further to the above, even once the Police have shut and cleared a stretch of motorway, emergency vehicles are still only allowed to face the correct way. They have to reverse back from the next junction and can't turn round so it's not exactly quick. My Wife took her ambulance to a scene on a motorway driving the wrong way from a junction once, helpful-as-ever traffic plod decided pulling her to one side and threatening to prosecute was the right thing to do at a multi vehicle incident.

Sounds to me as if your missus was in the right though. To the best of my knowledge, emergency vehicles are exempt from all motorway regulations, therefore running against the flow of traffic on a closed motorway, is no more illegal than reversing along it. I too have had the very same conversation with a traffic officer following very similar circumstances though. When I put it to him that reversing along a motorway is equally as illegal as driving against the flow of traffic on one, and that emergency vehicles can claim equal exemption to both anyway, he stormed off to check this with his sergeant, but never came back!

[Carlos W]

The officer was obviously a muppet. If it's safe to reverse along the closed stretch of motorway, then its safer, and quicker to drive along it forward.

After all, what is important, and everyone's number 1 priority is the preservation of life!

[Ethel]

I thought all traffic regulations were secondary - if you can show you had a life or death reason for breaking them. It's interesting to hear professional experience (Avvit, Dan), but if they can change regulations to use the hard shoulder they can also change the regulations for emergency vehicles. What happened to that seven lane stretch of road in Brum where they used to alter the direction of the middle lane for morning & evening rush hours? Surely driving an ambulance the wrong way up a motorway, with closed lanes & speed restrictions wouldn't be any more dangerous than it weaving through traffic on you average A road?

[Carlos W]

Driving an emergency vehicle with blue lights forwards down a closed stretch of motorway is far safer in my view than doing it in reverse. It'll handle and steer easier and it gives you FAR better visibility. 

 

The issue is, when people stop in traffic they stop too close to each other meaning that they can't easily move to one side as they're too close to the car in front. Police are taught to leave big gaps when stopping in traffic in case they're called to an urgent incident as it makes it easier to drive around the car in front. When I learned to drive my instructor (who was also my great uncle and God father) used to use the term tyres and tarmac, meaning you should be able to see the tyres of the car in front and some road when you stop in traffic. There are several reasons for this.

 

If they roll back, it wont be in to your car (hopefully)

If someone goes into the back of you, hopefully you wont be pushed into the car in front

If they break down you can drive around them

 

Unfortunately, driving standards do seem to be getting worse, every day I see people on their phones, with no seat belts on etc.

 

Hopefully there wont be issues with the M25, and the extra capacity will reduce incidents.

[Jordie]

It has been done for a while on the m42 (i think) near Birmingham.

I'm not sure if there have been any issues on that section of motorway but I'm sure a bit of Google or a freedom of information request would provide answers

 

I had a trailer blow out on that section. Didnt have any signs to say the hard shoulder was in use as a lane, nor any vehicles in it. I pulled over, got out to assess the damage and all of a sudden a RED X and a highways vehicle hammering towards me. I was told to drive the mile to the next emergency bit, which I would have done anyway if I knew it was there. This was afew years ago now.

[Black.Ghost]

It will be interesting to see what happens if something starts making a loud noise, and you pull over only to be told to drive the next mile. If something is then damaged and you can argue that the extra mile caused more damage, at what point would the Highways Agency become liable if they told you to keep going even if you explained that it could cause further damage?

[welldc]

 

And further to the above, even once the Police have shut and cleared a stretch of motorway, emergency vehicles are still only allowed to face the correct way. They have to reverse back from the next junction and can't turn round so it's not exactly quick. My Wife took her ambulance to a scene on a motorway driving the wrong way from a junction once, helpful-as-ever traffic plod decided pulling her to one side and threatening to prosecute was the right thing to do at a multi vehicle incident.

Sounds to me as if your missus was in the right though. To the best of my knowledge, emergency vehicles are exempt from all motorway regulations, therefore running against the flow of traffic on a closed motorway, is no more illegal than reversing along it. I too have had the very same conversation with a traffic officer following very similar circumstances though. When I put it to him that reversing along a motorway is equally as illegal as driving against the flow of traffic on one, and that emergency vehicles can claim equal exemption to both anyway, he stormed off to check this with his sergeant, but never came back!

 

Once the area in front of an incident has been declared 'sterile', ie: secure and no traffic can move past the incident, it is perfectly in order for authorised vehicles to drive the wrong way down the carriageway from the next junction. There is a recognised procedure for doing this and setting up a reverse flow system, if for example multiple ambulances were required or fire appliances had to leave to refill water tanks and return to scene.

Whether individuals in the emergency services are aware of the procedures is another matter, though they may soon have to learn!

 

In the same way, traffic trapped at an incident will, if long delays are expected, be turned around in a controlled way and ordered to drive the wrong way, back down the carriageway to the previous junction and exit the motorway there. It is an offence to do this without the express instruction of the Police or Highways Agency.

 

All of this takes manpower and time and will most likely be more difficult under the new systems. 

[welldc]

It will be interesting to see what happens if something starts making a loud noise, and you pull over only to be told to drive the next mile. If something is then damaged and you can argue that the extra mile caused more damage, at what point would the Highways Agency become liable if they told you to keep going even if you explained that it could cause further damage?

If your car is in a running lane and you cannot or will not drive it to the next available refuge or exit, it will be removed at your expense to a place of safety, by the Police or Highways Agency. You will not get your car back until the recovery charge is paid.

[Black.Ghost]

But that is a problem that is now only really caused by getting rid of the hard shoulder. If you could get it to there, your normal breakdown will take you. 

[Simont]

got a reply from my MP and he says the highways agency will recover you to a lay-by/hard shoulder for free if you break down in a lane, this covers all major motorways, then you will be resposible for recovery, he says in the letter 'the system is not perfect, but its a way of dealing with the amounting traffic'
so basically hes saying, they didnt want to spend any money