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Does Anyone Have A Kitcar / Or Are In The Market For One? Uni Research Needing Your Help :)


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#1 Midas Mk1

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 06:29 PM

Hi All,

 
Im currently doing my final year major project at Uni (Transport Design) , and one of the projects I am doing is designing a kit car for 2025.
 
Like my parallel project in my other thread about cycling, I was wondering if you may be able to answer some of the questions below,
it would be really interesting and usefulto get the opinions from current kit car owners / enthusiasts.
 
 
Thanks
 
Sam
 
 
 
 
1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going?
 
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?
 
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on?
 
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+
 
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals?
 
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period?
 
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car?
 
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations
 

 



#2 The Matt

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 08:27 AM

1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going? I haven't looked much recently, but I do find that brands other than Caterham/Westfield and the like aren't as well known as others.  Historically, things like the Midas, GTM etc are well known.  I believe the Kit Car industry could be far better advertised/marketed.  But maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?  I think the IVA thing scares a lot of people too.  But the idea of a project, where kit parts were pre-approved to IVA standards would appeal well to a lot of people.
 
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?  None, but it's something I'd like to take on soon.  Probably a 7 replica, for track use.
 
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on? NA - no personal experience
 
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+ 31-40 (I'm 37)
 
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals? Potentially, yes. But all I've really considered is something for track use.
 
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period? NA - No experience of this, but I'd assume less than 3-4000 miles per year
 
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car? It's not something I've thought about, maybe more adjustability for driver size (pedal reach, seat position, steering wheel positions). I'm 6'6" and 21.5 stone, so I'm generally off the scale in terms of design percentiles for automotive design.  Not many sporty kit cars are that good a fit for me! 
 
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations - more information required  (as in, sellers/manufacturers should publish more info about them more publicly)

 

 

PS: I've moved this to the Motor Mouth Section, it should get more hits in there. :thumbsup:



#3 ibrooks

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:38 PM

1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going?
There's a huge variation available and the "kit car industry" covers some things that are very different depending on your definition of kit-car. In general I'd agree that it's fairly unknown to the general public and they only find out about it and what's available after they decide they might be interested and they start researching - that sometimes means that people who don't realise that there are kits other than Lotus 7 lookalikes or Cobras don't even look because they don't know that what would suit them down to the ground is available. I think partly because of this it's heading more in the direction of specials that are only really suitable for weekend use or trackdays and staying away from the milder end of the market. Body conversions are becoming more popular as they don't need to go through IVA.
 
 
 
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?
At the moment I've just got a GTM Coupe. In the past I had another GTM Coupe, two Robin Hoods and an SPD200. If time and space were no object I'd fancy an Fastback Sebring Sprite from Archers Garage (not strictly a kit-car by the legal definition). I could also fancy an MEVX5 body conversion for my MX5 - again not strictly a kit-car. If money was no concern as well then I'd be looking for a Sebring TMX.
 
 
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on?
Yes. Depends on the kit. I know people who use sevens as daily drivers - you need to be hardy and prepared to put up with the discomfort when the weather is bad. I know a guy who used a Quantum convertible as a daily and it was just like using a production car. I can see my GTM being fine as a commuter car but it could get cramped if there was regularly more than just the driver or if you wanted to take some luggage somewhere but then so would a modern MR2 or a Smart Roadster.
 
 
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+
I'm male and 39 years old.
 
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals?
Depends on the mood I'm in. On different days and in different situations I want different things from my cars and over the years I've come to the conclusion that there isn't a car that can be all things to all people. My current daily is an MPV, I have an MX5 and the Coupe for fun and I've got a Focus Cosworth (Focos) for serious silliness.
 
 
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period?
Not a huge amount but then you need to spread that amongst 3 "fun" cars so probably 3k miles a year but I know people who bounce off the upper limits of what the kit-car specialist insurers will allow.
 
 
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car?
In an ideal world and I have kicked some ideas around as to how to achieve it and don't think it's impossible.... something re-configurable. I'd like something that can go from sports car to off-roader relatively easily - I'm not necessarily suggesting this could be done at the side of the road but if you could spend a day (or less) in the garage lifting the suspension and putting bigger wheels on it would be pretty cool. Maybe some sort of dis-connectable four wheel drive system (like the skyline box where it can drop the drive to the front wheels). The big stumbling block I see to this is the physical connection between the transmission and the driven wheels but if you can go to electric hub-motors then it becomes far easier to have the wheels move relative to the body from low to high positions (and if we're talking about a car for some years from now then electric is more likely to be a realistic proposition for a low volume/home builder). I have in mind the car/buggy in Tron Legacy but in a more realistic form.
 
I want a removeable hard-top with either a decent soft top for when the lid is in the garage or for the hard-top to be stowed/folded in the car.

 

 
 
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations

Sort of crosses over with the above but if I'm looking at one nowadays I tend to look at the components in the build and think whether I'll be able to get replacements in the future. I've come across this with the rear lights on the GTM as you can't get hold of them any more but there are other aspects where I've seen a kit built with some obscure part and thought that in 5 years time when it wears out or breaks it will be a major exercise to get a replacement or to re-engineer the car to use something more common.

 

Iain



#4 Ethel

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 03:29 PM

1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going?
Likewise, I haven't really looked. I could see something of a renaissance. since modifying anything out of a factory since 2012 is outlawed. Competing with production cars will get ever less viable because of the technology, especially safety wise. The ultralight racer, track day car is an area with potential - Seven, Atom, Elise  I also see component sourcing becoming more generic than donor based.
 
 
 
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?
Midas, it's a long term project. Also had a little experience of a Scamp & Midget that was so heavily modified it may as well have been a kit.
I wouldn't mind a Minus or a Jiffy, but that's more of a Mini thing
 
 
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on?
Yes. Essentially many are no less practical than the underlying donor, a roof & lockable doors  are big pluses though.
 
 
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+
I'm male and 51.
 
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals?

Yes, I'd be doing similar if it was my project. A base kit that could be used as a stripped out racer, or have bodywork added to make it more practical - and spread build costs, allow you to at least get something on the road sooner.

 
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period?
Been a while, but it was my preferred daily for the reduced running costs
 
 
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car?

See 5, something that's easily adapted and modified too. If you're building your own car you want a toe in the design office as well as on the factory floor.

 
 
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations

Generally good, I'd still be wary of compromised ergonomics from using donor components in a different configuration.

 

If you were after a "vorsprung durch technik" style catchphrase, perhaps "sound, accessible, engineering". I.m sure there are still many who see a car as a means of transport, not the fashion statement or lifestyle choice the big brands try to sell us.



#5 vx220

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 06:48 AM

Hi All,
 

Im currently doing my final year major project at Uni (Transport Design) , and one of the projects I am doing is designing a kit car for 2025.

 

Like my parallel project in my other thread about cycling, I was wondering if you may be able to answer some of the questions below,

it would be really interesting and usefulto get the opinions from current kit car owners / enthusiasts.

 

 

Thanks

 

Sam

 

 

 

 

1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going?

The two things that hold it back (and this is more about what I think other people opinions are...) are styling and "the PlayStation generation" that want instant gratification

Excluding replicas, most kit cars have at least one awkward angle (as do lots of production models) but kit cars can be all-over awkward!!!

And I think people look at a good MR2 Roadster for £3k and think "why bother spending months building my own?"

 

2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?

 

3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on?

I would love to use a Seven for a daily. People use motorbikes all weathers (again not as much as they used to) so why not? There was a good thread on pistonheads from "c*ckwomble" about using a seven daily, snow the lot!

 

4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+

43


 

5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals?

Not really, as above MR2 comments

 

6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period?

 

7) What would you like to see on a new kit car?

 

8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations

Lazy!

 
 



#6 vx220

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 06:56 AM

http://www.pistonhea...eport&mid=38759

IIRC some NSFW in there, but a good read

I think I could do it, but need the boot of the Bora ATM

Will probably be too old by the time I don't need the boot, and as said you need to be dedicated when you could have a perfectly usable MR2/MGTF/VX220 for between £2-8k

I did 34,500 miles in my VX in 13months when I had it, snow included. Could do that again without hesitation. But the seven would be even colder and more difficult to get into and out of.

I have wanted a seven since I was about 11, so maybe ONE DAY!

#7 ibrooks

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 10:42 AM

There are kits other than Sevens out there - some with more carrying capacity than a Bora. Just because a Seven is a kit doesn't mean a kit is a Seven (and not even all Sevens are kit-cars in the strictest definition).

 

 

 

 If you're building your own car you want a toe in the design office as well as on the factory floor.

 

 

I definitely agree with this one and my "kit" background has sort of embedded this in my experience. With a Robin Hood you need to do almost half the design work to get it on the road - it's a very different proposition to a Westfield where you can build it in a weekend if you know what you are doing around all the aspects of a car and buy all the bits in one go.

 

From memory the Sylva Striker and Stylus are on the same chassis and suspension and whilst they are both 2-seat sportscars they look very different. Platform technology is used by lots of manufacturers to make some very different cars that are a similar wheelbase and width so it strikes me that it's something the kit-car industry could easily adopt. It might also make the testing process easier if a couple of manufacturers got together and based their cars around a single chassis rather than one manufacturer having to do all the legwork.

 

Possibly getting off topic but maybe some useful stuff for the project since it's based around a future situation.

 

Iain



#8 M J W J

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 01:47 PM

I answered below. I haven't owned a kit car but I did start to build one and then sold it when it got to its point where it served its purpose.
 
1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going?
I personally think its quite stagnant and will always be so as a kit car is a luxury item.
 
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?
Owned a part built kit car. I'm not bothered about owning one but would like to build one, finish it and then sell it on to get my money back.
 
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on?
I think not. The locost chassis I built was a bit tight for a person to sit in and had a complete lack of luggage space. If you add all the things you need for it to be a kit car then it will either become horrendously expensive or no better than a sporty hatch back car which you may as well buy already built. This kind of defeats the purpose in my mind of a kit car.
 
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+
20-30, male
 
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals?
Yes- I'd be just as happy though with just a track car made from something like a BMW 3 series with the interior stripped out.
 
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period?
I use my car (vectra) 5 days a week minimum and do about 400ish miles per week. This equates to around 20,000 miles per year
 
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car?
A roof and doors. Not an open car like a lotus 7.
 
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations
Fun to build


#9 vx220

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 12:22 AM

There are kits other than Sevens out there - some with more carrying capacity than a Bora. Just because a Seven is a kit doesn't mean a kit is a Seven (and not even all Sevens are kit-cars in the strictest definition).

 
Iain


I'm aware of that, IMO most people think of sevens and kit car as interchangeable terms

...and since being a kid, ive always wanted something seven-esque (although the first time I saw a kit car it was a Dutton Phaeton!)

#10 ibrooks

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:21 AM

But even a Phaeton is a LSIS (Lotus Seven Inspired Sportscar) and MJWJ's comments just bear out what I've said about people assuming kit-car means an LSIS.

 

My GTM would be perfectly good as a daily driver with the rider that it's small so you can feel vulnerable mixing it with trucks but then the same would go for a Smart Roadster or maybe a Mini (although a Mini is taller so a bit more visible). Same would go for a Rossa, Libra or Spider.

 

NCF Diamond - nearly as big as a Range Rover and proper roof and doors so quite useable as a daily driver.

 

Phantom Vortex (or Vortex GTT as it's now become). Similar in concept to the GTM but bigger.

 

Quantum Coupe - practically a family hatchback.

 

Ginetta G32 - drool.

 

Ginetta G30 - not so pretty but no reason a good one couldn't be a daily driver.

 

You can get a hatchback for a Cobra........

 

MEVX5 - OK body conversion rather than a kit-car but it'll get you several hundred miles on a tank of fuel in comfort and dry with a heater and if you picked the right donor air-con.

 

Fit and finish is usually far more to do with the builder than the manufacturer and it's usually where the builder has the most input. Just how much equipment and creature comforts you want are a matter of taste, skill and budget. On the budget front the plus side is that it's far easier to spread the cost by fitting a bare minimum in the original build and then adding tweaks later. If someone is starting out on a build my recommendation is ALWAYS build basic to begin and get the thing on the road. Once you've driven it for a while you can start making changes because both the enthusiasm level and the budget have had the time to recover and you've had a chance to see what it's like in the real world and decide on what alterations are really needed.

 

And don't ever expect to get all your money back. Just like re-building a Mini it's occasionally possible but more often than not it would have worked out cheaper to go and buy one that someone has already done. Buying ready built though means you need to accept someone else's choices, be confident in their work and the money although slightly less is all needed in one hit.

 

Getting really off-topic now - Sorry.

 

Iain



#11 vx220

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:03 AM

I think my point is seven-esque makes sense, simple cheap performance and thrills

All the others, a production car will do the job cheaper and with less hassle than the kit alternative, and with the instant gratification our society seems to demand these days (which is "on topic"

The MEVX is badly proportioned, is an MX5 (so won't be as fuel efficient as you'd think) and has the opportunity to be leaky and rattly where the MX5 wouldn't

Leaks and rattles don't worry seven owners as the performance gain is worth it

Please don't think I am knocking kit cars. Since I was a kid it has been an ambition of mine, but the time has never been right for me. I love the idea of the individualism and/or performance gains, but right now I can't see the point, unless for the rawness and performance of a seven or the looks of a replica, as the availability of production cars and their affordability is very different to when kit cars were conceived.

As a market, I think there is too much emphasis by most people on "the Jones" across the street and what they will think. Imagine what it would cost to build an NCF Diamond to the level of a Kia/BMW/Discovery only to find your neighbours laughing and pointing?

At least if they are laughing and pointing at your seven/atomic/Dutton you know (and could demonstrate) which is the more exciting drive!

#12 ibrooks

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 05:47 PM

So a kit-car equals leaks and rattles? Like I said the quality depends on the builder and mentioning a Kia proves the point - have you SEEN how badly they are put together? I've seen them described as an insult to the buyer and if I'd paid out my hard earned for some of the rubbish they punt I'd certainly feel insulted.

 

An MEVX5 uses the original Mazda seals so there's no reason to think it should leak as they are excellent when in good order. The doors are the originals as is the bonnet so no reason it should rattle either. As for fuel efficiency - I know exactly how much fuel mine uses and it's not that much worse than my diesel daily on my motorway commute (petrol being cheaper it's borderline on price). With an MEV kit it'll also be a lot lighter than a standard MX5 so performance and economy will be better than standard (OK they aren't light-up-the-sky fast by modern standards). Personally I think they look good but then that's a matter of opinion and could count equally with a production car.

 

As for a production car doing the job cheaper - if "doing the job" means getting you from A-B then yes it might but then a Ka or 106/Saxo will probably do the job that a Mini will do and work out cheaper but still there are people here. With the high end kits you are looking at performance and handling that will put the best efforts of the supercar manufacturers to shame and whilst it's not instant gratification since you will need to build it the price tag is several orders of magnitude less and as I said not all in one hit. I think it's still a "kit-car" that holds the record for going from zero to a hundred and back again with the Veyron at more than 10 times the price in second position in the record books and Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ascari etc. were in the category "also ran".

 

I would go so far as to suggest that at almost every price point a kit will get you more "bang for buck" than an equally priced production car. I wouldn't suggest an NCF Diamond is in any way equivalent to a Discovery so it's a bit of a silly comparison to try and make.

 

There are of course anomalies and exceptions like the Scooby Impreza which can be had for Mondeo money (or less) nowadays. But then why doesn't everyone who wants a fast car go out and buy an Impreza rather than a Boxster or an RS6?

 

My point is that it's horses for courses but I think a lot of people do dismiss kits or don't even consider them as they just think kit-car equals Seven or rough-as-a-badgers-backside build quality and that's far from the case.

 

Iain



#13 M J W J

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 06:22 PM

But even a Phaeton is a LSIS (Lotus Seven Inspired Sportscar) and MJWJ's comments just bear out what I've said about people assuming kit-car means an LSIS.

 

 

My comments were based on my experiences owning a kit car chassis. I am fully aware that there are other kit cars out there like a GTM Rossa and replica cars such as a Lamborghini Gallardo built from a Toyota Mr2 which are not sevenesque.

 

To expand a bit on my answer I gave. I believe that if you start adding the cost of doors, roof, windscreen then the cost starts to make them prohibitive as an option as a daily driver. Some people will pay the money and use them but for others the cost of the kit will turn them away and they will just buy a pre built fast saloon car or hot hatch which will be more practical. Some of the kits for the replica Lambos are £20,000. There are a lot of other fast pre built cars you can buy with that sort of money and which will be much better as they will not be based on an old Toyota MR2. This is just one example but I think it illustrates my point.

 

Another issue is that most of the kits out there, that are of cars with doors, roofs and windscreens in them are replicas of fairly impractical cars to begin with. A replica Testarossa still has the same visibility, lack of storage space and low ground clearance as an original Testarossa meaning it will also not be a very good daily drive.



#14 ibrooks

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 12:37 PM

Kits aren't all "wish-it-was" replicas either. I'm not a fan of the pretend Ferraris as their underpinnings never manage to match their looks (although even those never really manage to be right because the proportions usually need to be messed with to get them to fit the chassis used).

 

GTM's don't only come in Rossa flavour either.

 

Recently £6k would have got you a well sorted GTM Libra. Nearest equivalent production car I would suggest is an Elise (but I'd rank the Libra as more practical) and anything under twice that price in an Elise is likely to be one with issues. You don't need to be talking telephone numbers to get a serious performance car with a proper roof and doors that would be perfectly happy on the daily commute.

 

The Ultima that set the 0-100-0 record drove itself to the test and went through a McD's drivethrough on the way there. OK it costs more than the outstanding mortgage on my house but like-for-like it's in the league of the very fastest of the supercars which will cost the sort of money that would buy half my street. There's a lot to be had before you get to that level though.

 

Iain



#15 Mini 360

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 01:25 PM

1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going? Apart from a very select few, pretty crap.  People expect high standards these days with function, fit and finish and 99% of kit cars still fall short on this.  So many new kits are trying to be cheap versions of Astons, Ferraris etc and they all fal I can see it dying a slow and painful death in the next 10yrs.

 
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own? None but would love a Z-Cars MonteBusa!
 
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on? I would say so, yes.  Provided you can put up with high levels of NVH and without the mod cons of computerised onboard infotainment. 
 
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+  Im 23 and male
 
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals? Well built, to modern manufacturer standards, yes!
 
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period? Dont own a kit car
 
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car? Technology.  iPhone/smartphone integration, Android style infotainment systems to customise etc
 
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations Really badly built
 

 






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