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Rod Change Rattle


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#1 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 09:57 AM

Rod change on a 79 van, hugely annoying tinkling rattle at most speeds, sounds to be exactly the tone of the bell-cap that is bayonetted onto the selector casting.

 

Pushing/holding the gear-lever doesn't change anything, and I forgot to lift the rubber boot and try to identify the origin whilst driving before I took the motor out yesterday .................

 

Believed to be truly outside gearbox and not inside, made the same noise before and after a recent box rebuild.

 

Am now examining the whole selector assembly.

 

Before I try and wedge/wrap something so the bell-cap can't sing, could anyone suggest other avenues ?

 

The bearing surfaces in the casing that carry the sliding rods are pretty slack, has anyone ever gone as far as rebushing these ?

 



#2 Spider

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 08:32 PM

Sounds like it could the the rods in the shifter housing and / or the eye that the lever slips in to and / or the shift lever, it has two 'balls' on it, the lower smaller one that goes in to the eye and the bigger one at the top, though, they are usually OK.

 

I overhaul everyone of them I fit to a car. They should fair better than they do, however the rubber seal at the front end 'goes' and then all the dirt in the world piles in. The bottom plate also has a hole in it which I weld up.

 

They can be re-bushed, it's a DU Bush, readily available from the Bearing Suppliers (I haven't found a Mini Parts supplier who has them), Dimensions are 0.600" OD x 0.500" ID x 0.500" Long. I pay around $4.50 AUD for them.

 

Check the Rods too as they wear pretty bad if it's been some time since it saw grease.

 

The Eyes while available are crazy money, way over the top IMO. I'm looking in to a different arrangement using a spherical bearing (which is about 10% the price). I'm not normally concerned with prices per se, but I just cannot for the life of me see where the coin is in these.

 

The smaller ball on the bottom of the shifter while removable, as far as I am aware, is not available as a spare part, but again, the spherical bearing will also do away with this too.

 

The inner rods are held in place with Roll Pins (same as used on the back of the gearbox), just be very careful when knocking these in or out that the Eye piece is not taking the brunt of the force when knocking the Pins in or out.

 

A job well worth doing IMO as it not only quietens them down, but does give such a nicer feel.



#3 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 07:31 PM

Hi Moke and many thanks for the characteristically complete and reasoned reply.
I will look into finding bushes.
The radial ball/socket clearances don't seem to be the issue regarding the noise since no action on the lever makes any difference.
The bayonet-locking of the bell-cover is very slack, however, in that there is a good 2mm of diametral clearance between the alloy nose and the steel bell ID, there are traces of rubbing/vibration in the fore and aft sense, and the timbre of the jangling is spot on. It will be easy enough to wedge something in the gap and see what difference it makes.
I have a question relating to primary gear bushings on which I would appreciate your feedback, I will put it up as a new post, if you can find a minute.

#4 Spider

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 08:56 PM

You're welcome.

 

I haven't had issues with the steel cap itself per se, not to say they won't flair out, I guess if it's suffered from excessive travel, it could well distort the shape of it. I have had the body where the pins are pressed in 'flog out' and then the pins dropping out. Not quite a prevention or cure, but I fit a hose clamp around the cap to at least hold them in. Usually the first indication of these giving trouble is the gearstick beginning to rotate.

 

I have a question relating to primary gear bushings on which I would appreciate your feedback, I will put it up as a new post, if you can find a minute.

 

There's already a thread currently running, which I'm about to add to, if it's in line with your question;-

 

http://www.theminifo...ry-gear-damage/



#5 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 05:57 PM

The steel cap looks like new and is not deformed in any way, it just wobbles or rotates around the axis of the pins.

I had thought of the hose clamp, once I'm sure that's the issue I'll try and find a more elegant solution.

Spotted the DEVA thread, as soon as you have info about "machinable blanks" from DEVA/FedMogul I would be very interested to hear.



#6 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 01:53 PM

Hey Moke, I quote -  "DU Bush, readily available from the Bearing Suppliers (I haven't found a Mini Parts supplier who has them), Dimensions are 0.600" OD x 0.500" ID x 0.500" Long"

 

http://fr.ggbpartfin...length=0.500000

 

Does that look the right part / type /dimensions ?

 

Is the casing already equipped with bushes like that or do you have to bore out the housing to accept these ?

 

Much appreciated,

 

Rory



#7 Spider

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 09:28 PM

That is them. I was able to look up the part number of the ones I have been buying - R-08DU08.

 

The stock Shifter Body already has bushes in them, so only a matter of knocking them out and knocking these in.

 

I made a punch / dolly to help me do these. It has a 0.496" Nose, so it fits inside the bush, with a shoulder 0.5" back, where the diameter is 0.592". I feel without the punch, it would be easy to damage the housing otherwise. There's not much wall to them and it can be difficult to see where the bush 'finishes' and the housing 'starts'. Should be easy for a guy of your talents to turn up a punch.

 

I also made up another dolly for fitting the roll pins in the shafts inside the housing. Some go easier than others and it can be easy to break the Eye piece bashing the pins in. To prevent this, be sure to do this operation with the rods and eye up against the housing where the bush is, not towards the centre of the housing.

 

I have had a couple of housings where the rod had worn right though the bush and in to the housing. One I made a custom bush for the other was scrapped off.

 

I think I've some photos on the office PC, I'll have a look later.


Edited by Moke Spider, 28 May 2016 - 09:29 PM.


#8 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 04:40 PM

Found the bushes, GET THIS - French GGBearings want 75€ HT EACH, down to 9€ a pop for orders of 100 off.

 

http://www.onlinebea...h-Imperial.html - 08DU08 listed at £0.72p each

 

So £7.10 including postage for 4 bushes - if I don't bugger any then there's a pair going spare.

 

Made an anvil from hard acacia that fits up and supports the eye, both pins drift out through the same hole in the dolly, which is reversed between operations - like you say, this takes all the effort off the Zamac or w.h.y. eye

 

The short (rear) rear spindle is hardly worn but the front (long) one is way undersize so I guess a bit of MS 1/2" bar will do to make another.



#9 Spider

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 09:14 PM

Surely they made a Typo!

 

I think I pay $1.50 AUD each for them.

 

I think you'll find MS (1010 or 1020 grade) too soft. It would be ~ OK ~ where it runs through the bushes, but much too soft for the roll pins, these will wear pretty quick.

 

The factory used EN16 for these, though 4140 (which is much easier to obtain here) is a very similar grade.

 

As an alternative, you could machine down the shaft to say 12.00 mm and make a bush or see if there's a metric DU Bush that would do the job. If you do machine the rod, you'd only need do the first ~120 mm or so from the shifter, not the whole shaft!

 

I make special rods for our Mokes. To drill them for the roll pins, I do them in the Mill, as you only need be the slightest bit off and the gearstick will be skewed a far way off.



#10 Spider

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 06:27 AM

A couple of promised photos

 

 

This is actually a new shifter body, but you can see the bush in it. There's also some new bushes

 

DSCN1812WM_zpsmhlgnnfe.jpg

 

 

This is the dolly I made up for drifting the bushes out and in again

 

DSCN2859WM_zps8ltgjexk.jpg

 

 

The dolly I made up for doing the roll pins inside the shifter body

 

DSCN2860WM_zpsiqkaerlx.jpg

 

 

And using it in the press (before I had it plated)

 

DSCN1930WM_zpsx6dubgaf.jpg

 

 

A near completed shifter (the short rods are for the Mokes)

 

SpiderShifterWM_zpsqaxhd8yo.jpg



#11 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 07:27 AM

How about 1/2" EN16T ? - £24 for 24" from High Peak Steels in Glossop, local to my father who is an active 93 year-old model engineer so will send him to collect, Imperial sizes difficult in France.

 

http://www.highpeaksteels.com/

 

Love the tools, not planning on doing this more than once so mine are more prosaic.

 

Q1. The picture of the finished box clearly shows the rocking-propensity of the bell, I'm thinking of brazing an angled-tab onto it and going onto the pair of casting-turrets to the rear with two 2BA screws, no ?

 

Q2. Is that boot a standard Moke part, and where can I get one ?

 

Q3. Regarding machining the holes in the rod, is it the separation/length that is critical (I've been blindly using the 998 Van rod hooked up to a 12HE Metro 1275 with no issues) or the angular alignment ?



#12 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 07:32 AM

Q4. And what do you make of the short-throw conversions ? Baulk at the price of the expensive ones from MS, but suspect the cheap ones are c--p. Any advice ?



#13 Spider

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 09:31 AM

I'm envious of your Dad - 93 and seems still getting about getting his hands dirty and having a good time - good for him, that's awesome!

 

Seems the Bearing guys could take a leaf out of the Steel suppliers book too, seems a reasonable good price to me.

 

Q1. Gotya now on the 'rocking bell'. Can't say that I've had an issue from these rocking, there's a nylon guide / slide and spring under it and so because of the pressure from the spring, I think that takes up most play in it. I've had a few where the bell has flared out but I just re-shape them. A Hose clamp can help, maybe putting some screws in there might also, just watch the ball doesn't tear around them, but should be OK I would think.

 

Q2. The boot was standard on all Minis and Mokes sold here, I think (not sure) they were also fitted in the UK, though I'm sure now they are NLA. I have a few NOS ones. You can use one of these OK

 

http://minispares.co...|Back to search

 

I would recommend fitting a boot of some sort.

 

Q3, Both are important, however, the length is an easy one to get right or very close, the angular one is not if done free hand. Also, you want to get dead square through the centre of the rod, or the holes won't line up for the eye of the coupler and you'll either not get the pin in or break the eye trying to do so. Hole size by the way is 7/32"

 

Q4. I've used quite a number of the Mini Spares Short Shifter (Throw) kits and I have to say, I really do like them. I have them in most of my Minis and in the Moke, they really are necessary, as the Moke has quite a long stick (about 75% longer than a Mini one), so the throw of the original sticks is huge and when in top gear leaves no leg stretching space, usually, the gear knob ends up against your knee. I find in the Mini, it gives a much more modern feel and is a pleasure to change gears instead of being a work out in the gym.

 

I do make a few mods to how I fit them though. The extension Bell is not a great fit and flops about, I fit 1 or sometimes 2 O rings (about 50 mm dia) between the extension bell and the shifter body. I also drill and tap an extra screw in to the back of it, to also stop it rocking and wearing all the alloy bit prematurely. For the Moke, I re-set the shape of the stick and fit an extension to them.

 

I don't think these an expensive shifter kit, those from KAD I think are quite a bit dearer, but also a higher quality (not that I find the MS one poor quality, just a little 'unfinished').

 

I've heard some people say they ruin gearboxes or you can beat the synchros with them. Can't say I've had either problem, though I don't slam through the gears with them on every shift either. I have used them to shift fast (often in the Mini and on Sand Dunes where quick shifting is needed - crucial - in the Moke) and had none of these issues.

 

Perhaps the gearboxes they were fitted to were worn prior to fitting and the stock shifter was masking this underlying issue?


Edited by Moke Spider, 02 June 2016 - 09:45 AM.


#14 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 11:08 AM

Thanks for all that, don't think we ever got boots over here but can see that adapting something else is not that hard.

 

The lever throw has never bothered me in the van, and my seats are so far back (cut into the parcel deck) that the proximity with the seat etc is not an issue.

 

Furthermore, now I've made this I'll be loathe to buy a short-throw one !

 

 

DSC01153_zpsj1ue4we1.jpg

 

 

DSC01154_zpsqjt7p329.jpg

 

 

There is enough distance between the screws and the collar to leave some spring in it, so the plastic cuff and spring keep the bayonets under a bit of tension.

 

Like all good scientists I won't have a clue whether it's the bell or the shafts that were making the racket, having absolutely failed to proceed rationally ...........

 

Regarding shafts, MS actually has the 1275 one UKN10023 still listed (out of stock) for £6.30, at 0.5" longer ; the change in length has got to be down to the motor position, not the motor type obviously, so I'll stick with the 998 one, 22G1930.

 

Somerford has that one at £25.09, which IF it's genuine and not a Mild Steel copy, is easier than sending a 93 year-old to pick up EN16T.

 

Point taken about the precision and milling, don't have my own but am confident I could knock up a jig and get away with it in the pillar drill ; maybe better get 2 x 24" lengths after all ...............



#15 Spider

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 11:15 AM

Nice one on the lug to hold the cap, I do like that. Thanks for sharing.

 

The 1275 rod listed is for the late cars (I think the MPI) they had the engine mounted 1/2" further forward to give some extra (needed) space behind the engine. Prior to that, all rods for Minis, 998 and 1275, were the same lengths. I'm pretty sure you'll be OK with the one from Somerfords.

 

A suitable jig would be quite OK for drilling them. I think the Mill just makes me lazy sometimes.






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