Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Bloody Wheel Bearings!


Best Answer surfblue , 07 July 2018 - 11:35 AM

Well my problem is at last fixed  :D

Yesterday I finally got round to fitting my nos hub, nos drive flange and a taper roller wheel bearing kit. All went together easily and no play now.

 

(Edit, Just like to place on record my appreciation for all those who provided advice and detailed explanations of how it all 'should' work! Especially Moke Spider and Tigger 99.)

Go to the full post


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#1 surfblue

surfblue

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Location: Stuck in the 1980's

Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:01 PM

My Mk1 is running original single leading shoe front drum brakes.

I noticed some "play" in the passenger side when jacked up rocking top to bottom, there is also a slight knocking noise when doing this.

Thought easy, new front wheel bearing required. Fitted and still same play. Changed ball jioints just to be sure it wasnt them. It wasnt, just the same. 

MOT tester suggested it might be the drive flange so ordered new one and another bearing. Fitted, still the same.

I then bought a second hand hub from a member on here and fitted it yesterday with yet another new bearing (They seem to fall apart when you try to remove them) Result?, exactly the same play.

 

Getting a bit peeved buying bearings and fitting them for no gain.

I suspect that the quality of the after market bearings is not what it should be, there seems to be a little more play in the races when twisting them by hand before fitting than Id think was good.

The only other thing I can think of doing is changing the whole lot for new, CV joint, hub, drive flange, thrust washer, nut etc in case there is just a combination of wear in everything thats adding up to the play?

 

Ant thoughts?



#2 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:53 PM

These bearings always fall apart and are ruined when removed, so that part is quite normal.

There are a few possible causes. I am assuming that the bearing outers are tight in the hub and the drive flange is tight in the bearing inners (or you would have noticed), so it is all down to end float. This is controlled during manufacture by making the spacer ring that goes between the bearing inners the correct thickness. The two bearings and spacer are a matched set and must never be mixed. More recent bearings have protruding inner races which but together without a spacer and again the bearing pair must never be mixed. Nor must either inner assembly be swapped into the other outer ring. Only by doing that will the bearing manufacturers carefully designed end float be achieved. The bearings were presumably supplies as a matched pair, with spacer if needed? Anything else is useless and potentially dangerous.

The next most likely thing is that the ridge in the bore of the hub that spaces apart the two bearing outers and carries all the side load has become worn due to a spilling outer race or by some previous owner's stupidity. Don't ask me how or why...

Then we have clamping issues, CV shaft too long so nut bottoms without clamping (you do have the correct washer?) or hub flange sleeve too long, so it bottoms on CV before bearing inners are clamped.

Finally, and sadly most likely, all the bearings you have tried have been cheap Chinese counterfeits passed off as genuine by whichever of the various Mini suppliers you use. This is a problem of massive proportions and in serious industries such things are detected, but the Mini spares supply chain is utterly rotten with ignorance and corruption, and this problem arises again and again. At least one supplier has been pairing up bearings without properly matching them and have on occasion been detected by the bearings being very tight, which presents a more real and immediate danger than being slack, as it results in overheating and failure of the shaft, with loss of the wheel and brakes.

Counterfeit bearings and one of the other main safety hazards, ball joints, are the reasons why it is becoming far more difficult to run a Mini safely. When the supply of genuine bearings as matched sets dries up, it is game over. Genuine Timken bearings are widely counterfeited in seemingly correct packaging. See their web site. More worryingly, even the aircraft and nuclear industries is being inundated with counterfeit bearings, high tensile bolts and electronic components, and I have personal experience of some of these. Certain people here will deny that it is happening, but why does at least one major Mini supplier not state the manufacturer of their bearings?

#3 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,844 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:07 PM

What bearings are you using?

 

Balls can be hard to measure properly, but with Tapers - if you can get the ring measuring gear - when fitted, there should be 10.00 mm between the inside faces of the out cups. Less than that and it'll be the hub.

 

If you are able to assemble it all, toque up the nut and it spins OK (but with said play) then it sounds like everything will be seated OK, but once again, the hub is likely at fault.

 

I'll add that these days, I can remember the last time I pulled down a front hub and it wasn't worn. Once that outer cup of the bearing spins even half a turn, it's all over.


Edited by Moke Spider, 12 June 2016 - 08:08 PM.


#4 surfblue

surfblue

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Location: Stuck in the 1980's

Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:18 PM

I suspect that a number of issues are adding together here. Poor quality bearings, tried different manufacturers, and general wear and tear of 50+ year old components. Having said that, bearings are certainly tight in hub as is the drive flange in the inner races which makes me suspect CV join shaft or washer.

(All of the bearings Ive had have had the additional inner flange rather than the old spacer that used to be part of the bearing set - is this likely to have any "bearing"?)



#5 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,844 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:37 PM

I can't see how it could or would be the CV Joint (given they are drums).

 

Is the Nut bottoming out on the thread before it's actually getting tight?  Try a second washer in there, even a soft one at this stage to check the theory.

 

Have you got the spacer for the grease seal fitted to the drive flange?

 

If the Hub the Spacer is fitted and Sleeve on the Drive Flange are OK, then it can only be wheel bearings.



#6 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,844 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 12 June 2016 - 08:53 PM

One other thing that maybe worth checking is the length of the sleeve on the drive flange that it's not bottoming out before the it takes up completely on the wheel bearings.

 

There's usually a good noticeable difference between the sleeve length and the bearings. You can usually check by just removing the CV, checking the flange is home and looking at the sleeve and bearing. I've never measured one, but there's about 1 - 2 mm here.

 

<EDIT: Tip: You can fit tapered rollers in there. Dimensionally they are the same and directly interchange with the ball types. Last time I looked, the Tapered are also cheaper and more 'serviceable'.


Edited by Moke Spider, 12 June 2016 - 08:55 PM.


#7 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 13 June 2016 - 09:40 AM

Moke Spider, are you saying that the outer ring spacing should be exactly 10mm on a car designed in imperial units?

Not suggesting you are wrong, merely hoping to learn something that I never knew, with a view to establishing the measurements for checking hub wear.

#8 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,844 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:26 AM

Moke Spider, are you saying that the outer ring spacing should be exactly 10mm on a car designed in imperial units?

Not suggesting you are wrong, merely hoping to learn something that I never knew, with a view to establishing the measurements for checking hub wear.

 

No.

 

I'll try to explain.

 

Say we have tapered rollers and we drift in the outer cups. Between the inner faces of those cups, it must be 10.00 mm apart

 

By the way, the front wheel bearing assys on Minis are and always have been Metric  ;D   like some of the gearbox bearings.

 

Next time you have a front wheel bearing, measure it's OD then look it up.  You'll find it under the metric range.


Edited by Moke Spider, 13 June 2016 - 10:27 AM.


#9 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:04 PM

Thanks! That is the sort of thing I wanted to know. I never knew that, as far back as 1959, a few metric items were already being used in the UK.

#10 surfblue

surfblue

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Location: Stuck in the 1980's

Posted 13 June 2016 - 08:08 PM

I can't see how it could or would be the CV Joint (given they are drums). Thinking logically about this you are correct as the drive flange is splined onto the CV joint, its not as if the bearings are running on the shaft of the cv

 

Is the Nut bottoming out on the thread before it's actually getting tight?  Try a second washer in there, even a soft one at this stage to check the theory. Thats a simple check and is what I will do next to prevent having to pull out the flange and ruin another set of bearings.

 

Have you got the spacer for the grease seal fitted to the drive flange? Yep.

 

If the Hub the Spacer is fitted and Sleeve on the Drive Flange are OK, then it can only be wheel bearings.

Also amazed that the taper roller and ball bearings are interchangeable, never heard this before or thought to physically measure them (Infact I ordered a set of taper rollers in error the last time and just took them back for a refund this afternoon, I remember fitting these to disc braked minis years ago and thinking that they had a massive torque setting for such a small bearing (150 lb/ft or something if memory serves me right) Presumably they need to be torqued much higher than the rollers?



#11 MRA

MRA

    Previously known as 'mra-minis.co.uk'.

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,607 posts
  • Location: Due to move again....

Posted 13 June 2016 - 09:13 PM

Has the OP checked the bottom arm bushes, just a thought as the above as gone through everything I would have checked....

 

Also all new cars still have some imperial threads on them yes even today ! :)



#12 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,844 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:36 PM

Presumably they need to be torqued much higher than the rollers?

 

No, just as per you normally would for a Drum Brake CV.

 

The Bearings are much better supported on a Drum Brake (and Cooper Type) set up with the sleeve in built with the drive flange, so they don't need to be as tight in the first instance and really, you can't torque them up much more than the 60 ft / lb specified without unwanted err,,,separation O_O .

 

The last Mokes built here, from about 1979 on all had tapered rollers, even the drum braked ones ;D



#13 surfblue

surfblue

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Location: Stuck in the 1980's

Posted 14 June 2016 - 07:43 PM

Is the Nut bottoming out on the thread before it's actually getting tight?  Try a second washer in there, even a soft one at this stage to check the theory. Thats a simple check and is what I will do next to prevent having to pull out the flange and ruin another set of bearings.

 

So its not the washer, added another one before re torquing the driveshaft nut - same!

 

Its for MOT start of next month. If they pass it Ill replace hub and driveflange with new items over next winter. If they fail it, guess I'll be doing it sooner!



#14 Spider

Spider

    Moved Into The Garage

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,844 posts
  • Location: NSW
  • Local Club: South Australian Moke Club

Posted 14 June 2016 - 08:19 PM

Bugger!

 

Given everything you have done, I still come back to the hub itself. I know that you've changed it and the bearings were tight all the way to go in, but just from my own experience and a bit of a hunch - but no money back guarantee either!

 

For what it's worth, this may help to think it over some more

 

DrumBrakeSectionWM_zpsjd0mdtn8.jpg


Edited by Moke Spider, 14 June 2016 - 08:25 PM.


#15 surfblue

surfblue

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,826 posts
  • Location: Stuck in the 1980's

Posted 16 June 2016 - 10:05 AM

Ill let you know when I get it sorted finally what the issue was.

Thanks for your input!






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users