95 replies to this topic

[slpj24]

Hi all,

Firstly, sorry if I have posted this in the wrong place. But I 'think' this is the correct place.

 

We have until the 2nd November 2016 to express an opinion on the following. After that, it may be too late. There is NOW a current government consultation process, that proposes exempting from MOT, ALL vehicles, 40 years and older, and classified as "VEHICLES OF HISTORIC INTEREST. So called "VHIs"

 

This is the governments stated "preferred option".

"Exempt 40 year old ‘VHIs’ from annual testing and introduce a ‘VHI’ certification process to ensure a vehicle has not been substantially changed (could be based on self-certification or independent inspection or a combination).

 

At first sight, this may seem attractive -- to those of us who HAVEN'T changed our cars "substantially". But along with this proposal, they say,  --- and I quote --

"we wish to consider whether we should restrict the annual mileage for VHIs exempted from testing. "

 

Amongst a number of questions they ask  is ---

"Q11: Do you agree that an annual mileage limit should be imposed on VHIs exempted from testing? If yes, what annual mileage limit should be imposed?"

 

In 2006, the Federation of British Historic vehicle Clubs (FBHVC) presented these figure to our government. It was also presented to the EU by FIVA.

"83% of historic vehicles are used fewer than three times a week.
67% of all historic vehicles covered less than 900 miles in the year of the survey, including 20% that travelled less than 300 miles."
 

It seems to me, that it wouldn't be too surprising, based on the above, if the proposed annual mileage limit, became around 1000 miles per annum. And that is IF your car continues to be  classified as a VHI. What if the moderate alterations you have carried out, disqualify your car? Will you simply be able to opt out of mot exemption? Can you opt out of VED(road tax) exemption now, if your car is 1973 or older? No, not as far as I know. And there are proposals contained in this anyway, to reapraise vehicles that are "substantially changed",   -- based on the currrent 8 point DVLA rules.

 

I don't know what the outcome of these consultations will be. But I do know this. I have altered my car. I drive it FAR MORE than 1000 miles per annum. I wish to continue to drive it for more than 1000 miles per annum.

 

If this concerns you as much as it concerns me. Then follow this link to the Government's propoals, and follow the instructions there to respond. Also make sure you download and read ALL the contents of the 2 pdf files provided there.

https://www.gov.uk/g...storic-interest

 

The FBHVC is also opposed these proposals. They posted this on their facebook page --

"Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs Please keep the comments coming folks, especially if you can see a point that we may have not thought of.

To clarify a few things:
-we do not wish to see a mileage restriction put in place

-we wish for hot rods and the like to continue being used on the roads, ideally on the same basis as 'original' vehicles, and last year we showed a dossier of a variety of modified vehicles to senior DfT people, in addition to making the justification for modern brakes, updated suspension, synchromesh etc.

-the original proposal several years ago was to exempt pre 1920 vehicles. This morphed to a pre-1960 decision, as is well known.

-we are also committed to supporting traders. In addition to having a trade membership scheme we also set up the apprenticeship programme which will create the historic vehicle engineers of the future."

 

The FBHVC is running their own poll on facebook, and ancouraging people to respond. To comment follow this link.

https://www.facebook.com/fedbhvc

 

 

 

In 2011, a consultation paper stated, ---

Vehicles of historical interest are supposed to conserve the heritage of the period during which they were constructed, and are considered to be hardly used on public roads.

 

How long before that reads, ---

"VHI's SHOULD hardly ever be used on public roads". And that is only a breath away from stating that, "VHI's SHOULD NEVER be used on public roads".

 

None of this is new, and hasn't come out of the blue in isolation. This has been building for years, as part of a process. We already have mot exemptions for pre 1960 vehicles, originally proposed as pre-1920 as explained above, but extended when put into effect. We already have VED exemptions for 1973 vehicles. This is seen as the next step.

 

We can't just leave this to the FBHVC or other organistations to act on our behalf. We have an opportunity to repsond, as individuals and businesses, in our own right.

 

The deadline for responding to the government's consultation proposals, is 2ND NOVEMBER 2016.

Edited by slpj24, 02 October 2016 - 01:25 PM.

[slpj24]

Please read above post to make sense of this post.

 

I'm updating this to include an excerpt from another forum.

"We need to argue against the MOT exemption proposals and mileage restrictions in the first place, but also argue against the adoption of the inappropriate DVLA 8 point test which was designed to prevent car crime, and is not a fit test for a classic car status."

 

 

This is worth keeping very much in mind. The Government's intention is, to -- "ensure a vehicle has not been substantially changed",  --- in order to allow it to be or to continue to allow it to be, classified as a "Vehicle of hsitoric Interest" (VHI). And one of the metthods in their preferred option is the 8 point system for radically altered vehicles. But as yet, nobody has defined "substantially changed." There are official discussion papers that mention even something as trivial as not having the original factory side lights. Clearly that is unlikely to be adopted.

 

However, there is a very clear intention, to qualify ONLY vehicles that are as close to factory specification as is considered 'reasonable'. Define reasonable. ?? The 8 point system is such that it is easy to be trapped by it, with the loss of 5 points for any chassis modification. If this is the system adopted, to qualify or disqualify, vehicles as so called VHIs, then many of us could potentially find ourselves facing an "Individual Vehicle Approval" (IVA) check, as a result of failing some part of the 8 point system, or a modified version of it.

 

It is not clear at all, how they intend to deal with those vehicles that do not qualify as VHI.  But it IS very clear, that they are not carrying out this consultation, and promoting their preferred option, as an academic excercise. They won't simply allow 'failed VHIs' to carry on as before. If they intend to impose annual mileage limits on qualifying VHIs, then what might they impose on failed VHIs? Hence it is essential that as many people as possible voice their opinions by completing the response to the proposals on the Goverenment website, or by the other means described there.

 

https://www.gov.uk/g...storic-interest

 

The deadline for responding to the government's consultation proposals, is 2ND NOVEMBER 2016.

 

 

 

 

 

[Archived2]

As long as I can carry on using my car and pay road tax at my choosing then it's not really a worry. (Don't apply for historic status)

An historic car should be original to preserve that model. Why class a hot rod version of a cortina as of historic importance?

The points system has been around for yonks, if you've ignored it and modified your car to an extent that this is of concern then maybe you shouldn't have ignored the IVA or sva?

Lots of scary talk going on but we need to see all the facts before getting frightened about it.

Edit: the 8 remaining points rule wasn't designed to stop car crime lol

Edited by minihobbymini, 03 October 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Ethel]

Had a look at .gov response form. There isn't anything that allows you to express an opinion on being given HVI status. That's my only concern too - that if your car is old enough to qualify, it'll be dragged along with the same assumptions about restricted use. 

 

I don't see what the big deal is over MoT's either. There's less and less to test the older the car is, perhaps they should be looking at alternative methods of testing instead - licencing mobile testers, or owners clubs to reduce inconvenience and costs.

[1984mini25]

Hold on, so you would get road tax exemption and mot exemption at the cost of limited mileage, so what's the problem? Sounds like another case of wanting your all your cake and eating it.

 

For the last few years I've been doing less than 800miles a year (only 500 last year) in my 32 year old mini, But I've still had to pay road tax (witch is a lot more than on a modern car with a larger engine) and have an mot each year.

[Cooperman]

There was a thread on here a couple of years ago which was advocating a 25-year rolling exemption to road tax. Most supported it, but some of us cautioned against it as it was thought likely to bring restrictions on permitted changes and useage. It looks like this is now possibly going to happen. Restricting annual mileage would be difficult because it is so easy to adjust the older type odometer readings. Which is not to say it can't happen, just that it would be impossible to police. There is nothing to prevent me from changing my 'broken' speedometer unit as often as I wish or need.

 

There is no doubt that what are known as 'period modifications' will always be allowed. It is the creation of 'hybrid' vehicles, or vehicles which are so heavily modified that they cannot honestly be considered as 'Historic Vehicles'. If, for example, you fit a different make and type of engine, a fibreglass front (with all the safety issues), huge wheels with 'stretched' tyres, all those are major mods and will already require a further IVA/SVA test if declared, which many aren't.

 

It is surprising how many modifications were 'homologated' by the manufacturers of the Mini. For example, big valve heads, bigger and/or twin carbs, wider wheels, wheel arch extensions of various widths, plastic windows, up-rated suspension, different gear ratios, twin fuel tanks, oil coolers, etc. It is not likely to be the Classic Mini which would have a big problem, it is more likely to be, for example, the VW Beetle. They get modified to such an extent that they are no longer truly road-worthy or representative of the original. They may have Subaru engines fitted, they are lowered to such an extent that they are almost undrivable, they are cut & shut until their structure is very different and not necessarily as strong. That is the sort of thing which will be effected, not we with our beautiful Minis who fit a pair of twin 1.5 SU's and a better cylinder head and more efficient exhaust, combined with improved brakes. If we modify beyond the way they were 'in period' then we may have problems. But, surely, classic car ownership is mainly about the 'retro' driving & ownership experience, not trying to make an old car go like a new one.

 

Politically there are too many jobs in the UK relying on classic car restoration for any detrimental legislation to happen. 

Edited by Cooperman, 03 October 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[robminibcy]

Im In 2 minds about this, on the one hand the convenience and no stress about not having mot would be nice, on the other I don't want to have to limit enjoyment to prevent going over the mileage limit whatever that may be. I will admit though having the MOT does force me to get jobs done that I may otherwise put off which is not a good mind set to have if the mot test were to disappear.

 

The points based system in theory shouldn't affect anyone anyway if their cars are on the road legitimately with the correct registration ( ie are not massively altered or have had the IVA test). In practice though........ Im not going to open that can of worms! It doesn't affect me anyway!

 

Im not sure its a good idea to suddenly let all cars over 40 years old on the road without MOT. Yes the majority probably are owned by enthusiasts with reasonable skill in car maintenance and repair but there's a lot im sure owned and maintained by people who shouldn't be trusted to maintain a teapot! Getting rid of an MOT would only tempt this type of owner to use older cars to avoid the costs and inconvenience of testing especially since there's a lot of 40 year old cars that are still well suited to every day driving!

Edited by robminibcy, 03 October 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[dyshipfakta]

Wow there is going to be a spate of unringing going on! Rung tax exempt cars back into their original 80s v5s so they can be used as a daily! Lol

[Cooperman]

Restricted mileage is unlikely to work. Control of modifications could though as it is easy to establish what are period modifications.
The entire classic car movement, and this includes the classic Mini as much or more than most other classics, is dedicated to maintaining the retro driving of an earlier age and the vast majority of enthusiasts for old cars would never consider using them every day.
So these possibly changes are unlikely effect them very much if at all.
It's not some about which we need to be really concerned.

[Daz1968]

My 1962 mini currently has an mot and the garage I use is very understanding to older cars and doesn't expect it to be as good as a modern car on brake efficiency and lights, but I can see that an mot at a garage with relatively untrained staff could be a nightmare so the exemption would help this, problem is I do not agree with no safety checks at all, I really think a basic roadworthy test either once a year or every two years would be a far better idea.
I also am concerned where this is going as I own a few classic vehicles and really don't want to many restrictions.
Think it's one we have to wait and hope the clubs and motoring organisations get involved if it starts looking difficult.

[mab01uk]

This was said by some classic car enthusiasts in Belgian a couple of years back about their new registration proposals.........perhaps this will be another advantage for the UK leaving the EU.

Quote:
"In Belgium we had a new registration system introduced nearly 2 years ago which means we can’t no longer keep our old reg numbers and now we are issued with huge plates that totally ruin the appearance of classic cars. There are no provisions to get period related regs, nothing. Our classic cars can be fully Moted and then issued with a “normal” reg (something now starting with 1-DRA-725 or similar) and usable as everyday cars or get through a basic test and be issued with an “oldtimer reg such as this example “1-OBE-467″.That means we can only use the cars in a 25 km radius from home (question is what happens when the car is garaged elsewhere from where you live!), only for tests, we can’t take such a car to go to work or shopping, can’t really use it unless for duly approved meetings by the local federation of clubs. Which means not a lot, of course! Some police officers are real ******* and stop people driving “O” reg cars, check you haven’t been to the local Tesco’s and that there are no bags with food inside… I know a guy whose number plate was taken off the car, he got fined and had to call a rescue truck to get the car home!"

Edited by mab01uk, 03 October 2016 - 06:43 PM.

[Archived2]

This was said by some classic car enthusiasts in Belgian a couple of years back about their new registration proposals.........perhaps this will be another advantage for the UK leaving the EU.Quote:
"In Belgium we had a new registration system introduced nearly 2 years ago which means we can’t no longer keep our old reg numbers and now we are issued with huge plates that totally ruin the appearance of classic cars. There are no provisions to get period related regs, nothing. Our classic cars can be fully Moted and then issued with a “normal” reg (something now starting with 1-DRA-725 or similar) and usable as everyday cars or get through a basic test and be issued with an “oldtimer reg such as this example “1-OBE-467″.That means we can only use the cars in a 25 km radius from home (question is what happens when the car is garaged elsewhere from where you live!), only for tests, we can’t take such a car to go to work or shopping, can’t really use it unless for duly approved meetings by the local federation of clubs. Which means not a lot, of course! Some police officers are real ******* and stop people driving “O” reg cars, check you haven’t been to the local Tesco’s and that there are no bags with food inside… I know a guy whose number plate was taken off the car, he got fined and had to call a rescue truck to get the car home!"

Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't see an issue with that system?

If you go to shows and meets with other classics etc and not for other reasons then I feel exemption is fair. If you want to use a car in the same way as any other then a regular test and tax system is fair too.

Some countries ban the use of older cars in city's. this concerns me much more than mot testing etc!

[idlethumbs]

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the benefit to cars not having an mot?
Whilst I know an mot only means the car was good on that day it is still what we all aim for in a restoration so we are safe on the road.
There are enough idiots out there that won't do that welding on the seat belt anchor but puts there child in the car, or drives with sharp edges sticking out, or runs their tyres showing cords as the chance of being stopped by the police on their annual 500 miles per year is so slim.
An mot is a minimum safety standard of a car at least once a year and in my opinion should be more important on an older car, especially low mileage cars where an mot is arguably more accurate for the entire year.

[Archived2]

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the benefit to cars not having an mot?
Whilst I know an mot only means the car was good on that day it is still what we all aim for in a restoration so we are safe on the road.
There are enough idiots out there that won't do that welding on the seat belt anchor but puts there child in the car, or drives with sharp edges sticking out, or runs their tyres showing cords as the chance of being stopped by the police on their annual 500 miles per year is so slim.
An mot is a minimum safety standard of a car at least once a year and in my opinion should be more important on an older car, especially low mileage cars where an mot is arguably more accurate for the entire year.

Absolutely.

[Spider]

I've been reading this thread with some interest though highly unlikely to affect us guys here in Aust, though I do know that our Politicians do look to other states for ideas and I'm sure they also look abroad too.

 

Many states in recent years have introduced a similar scheme here, but the 'restriction' on use is not based on mileage (thank goodness!) but the number of days per year. Some states, are a fixed amount, some are fixed 'free' days + Club days on top, others are also fixed, but you can elect at the time of payment whether to go for a shorter or longer period.

 

eg, in Victoria they have a 45 or 90 day scheme. Here in NSW they are currently trailing a 60 day + unlimited Club days scheme. It is 'policed' by way of a log book that you need to fill in prior to starting the day's journey.

 

Perhaps rather than mileage based, a days of use scheme might better suit some of you guys?

 

I'm sitting back at this time, but if the scheme largely remains unchanged, the 60 day scheme will suit me well. A mileage based scheme would be useless as while I don't go out often, I do rack up the miles, a 1000 mile use would only last me about 2 days!