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Idea To Reduce Con Rod Angularity In A 998


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#16 mini13

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:01 PM

first off, S rods used to be used in small bores for miglia's, IIRC you turn the offset off of the rod to get them to fit the crank, details are in the big yellow vizard book...

 

rod lenth is an interesing one, essentially it is a trade off and you want to size the rod for the use of the engine, be careful though as you can push the g loads on th pistons very highespecially on long strokes....

 

for a 998 i would not be worying too much about lengthening the rod as its not a terribly long stroke, the 1275 though can benifit from rods around 6" IMO in certain engines, also with the longer rods you can move the pin higher in the piston to make them more stable which is quite nice....



#17 mini13

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:03 PM

http://www.motoiq.co...gth-Matter.aspx

 

 

an interesting graph...



#18 hhhh

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 03:04 PM

Moke Spider is right, it's much more complicated than the simple geometry proposed by Ethel. There is only one point on a conrod moving in a circle: the center of the big end. Here's an interesting discussion on rod length from a vintage BSA forum:

 

http://b50.org/phpBB...ston dwell time


Edited by hhhh, 26 April 2017 - 03:05 PM.


#19 Ethel

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:54 PM

I was wrong, but not in that - all of the Conrod is moving in an arc about the little end.

I was approaching it from the opposite direction, but what I didn't acknowledge is the longer the crank the greater the velocity of the big end for the same rpm, so the greater the piston acceleration from rest (tdc) to mid stroke. Lengthening the crank has the same effect as shortening the Conrod.

#20 hhhh

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:46 PM

Ethel: agreed if you change "concentric circle" to "concentric arc."



#21 Spider

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:12 PM

http://www.motoiq.co...gth-Matter.aspx

 

 

an interesting graph...

 

It's a great graph, thanks for finding and posting it.

 

It does show the point that I made in my first post in this thread that with a shorter rod, as the volume of the cylinder is increasing, the piston velocity is higher, leading to better cylinder filling.

 

There's many good points also raised in that article.  One other consideration I was getting around to is that with a longer rod it increases the reciprocating mass.

 

In respect of our A Series Engines and the heads they have, a very good point is raised here in that article;-

 

"So this longer rod, higher rod:stroke ratio seems awesome.  Why aren't all engines built this way?  Well, not all engines are race engines that only operate in the upper rpm range.  The lower piston acceleration that benefits volumetric efficiency at higher rpms can hurt it at lower rpms.  The port velocity can become too low in the lower rpm range reducing exhaust scavenging effects thereby hurting volumetric efficiency resulting in gutless bottom end torque.  This does not make for a very good daily driver stuck in stop and go traffic.  As the saying goes, there's no free lunch!  Also, just like when designing intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, and cams, optimizing for one part of the rev band generally hurts the opposite end.  But what we learned is that the rod:stroke ratio is another variable that can be optimized to improve performance."

 

Our engine simply cannot rev in to the range where the rods we have can work best for a few reasons, not the least of which is the asthmatic cylinder heads they have. A better head can be fitted but as the  A Series Engine (except for the 970) is under-square, the limitation with any head that's going to be fitted is that the valves (and therefore ports) will always be well less than optimal than for a square or over square engine.

 

Higher Rod Ratios are used in short stroke very high reving engines, neither of which is applicable to the A Series Engine.

 

Again, from that great article that mini13 kindly posted up;-

 

"The Yamaha YZF R1 is a typical modern sports bike that revs to 12,000 rpm.  Its engine has a stroke to rod length ratio of 2.12:1 which is suitable for high rpm use.  This can be compared to a Nissan SR20DE engine which revs to 7700 RPM with a rod to stroke length ratio of 1.58:1"

 

By running a short rod and therefore increasing peak piston velocity further down the bore, we can take best advantage of the limited flow we have. Instead of trying to grab a big amount of air in a short space of time, we are drawing a bigger amount over a longer period.and as the volume is increasing, so the piston velocity is increasing at a better rate than with longer rods.

 

<EDIT: Stroke length has a much greater effect on any TDC Dwell time than Rod Length will. >


Edited by Moke Spider, 26 April 2017 - 07:22 PM.


#22 Spider

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:16 PM

 Lengthening the crank has the same effect as shortening the Conrod.

 

Decrease in Rod / Stroke Ratio ;D



#23 tiger99

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:22 PM

I have often wondered why the gudgeon pin is set so low in the pistons. Higher up means longer rod, and the side thrust on the piston is better proportioned over its height, so less wear and less tendency to develop "piston slap" (although that was more common in the short stroke Ford pre-crossflow engines of that era, long before they wore out). But it means a smaller gap between gudgeon pin hole and lowest ring.

 

Theoretically we would want no rod angularity, and there are ways of doing that, but they add reciprocating mass and other problems inappropriate to a high revving engine. I understand that some very low speed (100-150 rpm) marine engines burning heavy oil may have such mechanisms. A steam locomotive uses a crosshead to decouple side loads due to rod angle from the piston rod seals. Stationary beam engines used a Watts linkage or similar for the same purpose, at maybe 60 strokes per minute.

 

But in an A series, why bother? A new head design would work wonders, the lower parts are the least of the problems. and few or no modern engines do anything much about it. Some theoretical ideals can be approached in practice, but I don't see that this one is worth the aggro, except to promote good technical debate, which it does.



#24 Ethel

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 08:33 PM

It's one of those unforeseen strengths of the Mini. Less than outstanding engine performance has provided an opportunity for enthusiasts and racers to develop a tuning industry.

#25 tiger99

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 11:13 AM

Fair comment, the engine does date from about 1950, when it was an update to the Moggy to replace a pre-war side valve engine. Therefore there must be scope for improvement.

 

I actually think that there is quite a bit more to come.



#26 hhhh

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 03:59 PM

It's what makes this hobby infinitely interesting. It's why I also like to mess around with '50s, '60s and '70s British bikes. The designs typically date from the '30s so were already out of date when produced. There's always something else to improve upon. I don't know how kids today get any satisfaction from tuning by changing a chip in their engine management modules or whatever they call them (I just don't care.)






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