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Ball Joints - How Tight?


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#16 Boycie

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:37 AM

I must have been doing them wrong for the last 20 years. I have always fitted them tight, ie like a new ball joint you'd buy for a modern car. I've never had one fail in hundreds of thousands of miles but now I'm a little worried..

#17 tiger99

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 02:00 PM

Ans so you should  be! Just because you probably know someone who smoked all of his or her life and lived to 100 does not mean that you will not die a very premature death if you take up smoking. Nor does the excuse for not wearing a seat belt, because someone was killed by one, stand up in court, since far more lives were actually saved. Risk is a strange thing often poorly understood, and just because you have got away with it so far does not make it an acceptable practice.

 

Despite the rantings of some of the more wilfully ignorant members of this forum, personally directed against me, I was only quoting from the instructions given by the Competent Design Authority (CDA), As a safety professional myself, I know far better than to say that something is safe when it is not. We are not at liberty to reinterpret the instructions from the CDA as and when we feel like it. Many, many accidents in various fields of endeavour have happened exactly because wilfully ignorant people, who of course "always know best", did as they saw fit.

 

Frankly, in a car like the Mini, where comprehensive maintenance information is freely available, there is not the slightest excuse for doing any safety-critical work badly, and those who disregard the correct maintenance instructions provided by the CDA may well end up on manslaughter charges. There are many precedents, including one recently involving a lorry and its brakes. Incorrect maintenance can also invalidate the insurance.

 

As for modern ball joints, the construction is entirely different and they are, by their design, spring loaded to a known amount, which is what makes them seem tight when new. They do loosen up after a while. In the Mini, there is no spring loading as such, except for the anti-rattle spring, and the ball is enclosed in what is effectively solid metal when the nut is tightened down, so there is effectively no limit on the frictional force that can be generated if it is too tight. What is not being appreciated by some people, and never will be till they have an accident, is that the problem lies with the bending moment induced in the shank of the ball pin, and the stress concentration at the narrow part of the neck. The root radius of what is effectively a groove is critical, and the slightest stress raiser such as tool marks from bad machining is really not wanted there. (Could be a good idea to spin new ball pins in the lathe or drill and polish the neck with fine abrasive paper). The problem is that it will not be instantaneous overload that makes it break, but cumulative fatigue damage, and stress corrosion cracking, and that may happen soon after, or a long time after, the over-tight joint is used.



#18 Magneto

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 04:56 PM

You don't consider this a personal attack at me?

 

What I described was that if you can move it by hand it is not overtightened, and will not cause impending doom. But again, my 50 years of experience means I've only been lucky, in your book.

.

 

Magneto, what part of "no nip" or for that matter, basic safety, do you not understand? Opinions like that, which have no basis in fact, can easily result in people being killed. Needing a gloved hand is far too tight.


Edited by Magneto, 25 June 2017 - 04:58 PM.


#19 midridge2

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 05:52 PM

Its a forum, advice is given be it right or wrong.
What we do not need is self appointed "experts" who class other people who give their advice as morons monkeys etc.



#20 sonikk4

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 06:25 PM

People do not come on here to be abused or accused.

 

tiger99 either you temper your comments or they will be tempered for you. Doom and gloom comments again.

 

The only reason why you did not get a warning point for your comments on another thread was due to the forum having issues. Keep going with comments like you have been and i will restrict your posting ability.



#21 Shifty

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:25 PM

I'm another tight one as well!!

 

As long as they can be moved either using a spanner or by hand then I consider them to be fine.

 

There's a fine line between too loose and to tight and I always err on the tight side.  My thoughts being (as I also believe they were done tight at the factory) that after a few miles they effectively lap themselves in.  Doing them too loose at the start would accelerate wear as any play will allow movement, more movement= more wear and so it goes on.



#22 Boycie

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:29 PM

A very thorough explanation Tiger, thank you.

The only thing I don't understand is that when new, they were never set as loose as light finger pressure.  In a 'previous life' I used to buy very low mileage, written off Minis and Metros (amongst other cars) and break them for parts.  The cars were of course worth very little back then.

 

The low mileage, really nice cars had, I presume, mainly untouched front hubs etc and the ball joints were never loose.  In fact, I remember most needed very firm hand pressure to move them, hence why I have always assembled them like that when the cars started doing the mileages and needed repairs in that area.



#23 tiger99

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 12:14 PM

Well, they never came out of the factory tight, so they must have been changed,and done badly, at some time, which is not surprising, as it would appear that some owners, hopefully a tiny minority, never grease them. If assembled with a thou or so of clearance and greased regularly they last for a very long time, possibly more than the life of an average Mini, driven for maybe 8k miles a year for about 7 years before rust intervenes.

Or they could have been tight due to a buildup of rust and congealed grease.

It is a bit worrying that you found tight ones, as they will either loosen up fairly quickly or break. That is why I suspect that you were finding cars that had their ball joints bodged just to scrape through one last MOT.

By the way, adjusting a worn joint by removing shims is extremely bad because the ball is invariably no longer spherical and will jam at extreme angles and possibly break immediately, even if it is quite loose when central. But I know that it was once common practice in back street garages. Very misguided, because the cost of new parts is minor compared to the labour involved. I hope those days have long gone.

#24 Honda-Mini

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 03:05 PM

i got told yesterday by a friend of mine not to order new ball joints as my loose ones were fine to re-shim.... consequently, i have four sets of swivel hub pins (see what i did there ;) ) on order from minispares as i decided to discard this advice lol

 

i presume the gsj166ms are ok to use as they say on their site "Genuine Xparts used our same kit but with different top locktabs that held the metal brake pipes on non disc brake models pre 1984."



#25 AeroNotix

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 03:41 PM

This area seems ripe for modern reinvention. I find that the ball joints and overall design of the hub leaves a bit to be desired (take with a grain of salt, I am a noob). The assembly, dismantling and verification procedures seem quite error-prone.

 

In my short time here I've seen many a thread regarding newcomers not having the foggiest what "tight enough" and "gloved hand tight but not ring spanner tight" even feels like. It's that kind of nebulously vague talk that makes it dangerous to perform maintenance and repair on cars, NOT the genuine wilful ignorance of people when fitting parts.

 

All in all if the specifications and assembly procedures had more concrete parameters to go off I doubt people would have as many issues with them. 

Aren't there any good after market replacements for the entire hub assembly? I.e. swivel hub, ball joints and related fasteners?



#26 racingbob

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 08:08 PM

I fitted a top drivers side recently and done to the ring spanner but wasn't tight could move without any real force hasn't broke yet drives good.im not a mechanic just read out of one of the mags.but were quality ball joints

#27 Ethel

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 11:53 AM

I suppose you could potentially reshim, but you'd have to take care to realign the pin and socket as before to counter the ovalling. More effort making replacement more cost effective (and ignoring any fatigue). 

 

The loads you put through your suspension will vary hugely, so the potential friction between the mating surfaces will too. On that basis I'd think good lubrication is paramount, so there'll be a sweet spot between a joint that's tight enough to force metal to metal contact and one that's so slack the grease can be easily displaced to the same effect. If it's already been mentioned, I'd second favouring molybdenum grease over the LM mentioned in the manuals.

 

Hasn't it also been noticed that some replacement balls don't have the grease channel that was ground on to the originals? We could have a argument discussion about the best orientation for it  :P



#28 Ethel

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 12:05 PM

This area seems ripe for modern reinvention. I find that the ball joints and overall design of the hub leaves a bit to be desired (take with a grain of salt, I am a noob). The assembly, dismantling and verification procedures seem quite error-prone.

 

In my short time here I've seen many a thread regarding newcomers not having the foggiest what "tight enough" and "gloved hand tight but not ring spanner tight" even feels like. It's that kind of nebulously vague talk that makes it dangerous to perform maintenance and repair on cars, NOT the genuine wilful ignorance of people when fitting parts.

 

All in all if the specifications and assembly procedures had more concrete parameters to go off I doubt people would have as many issues with them. 

Aren't there any good after market replacements for the entire hub assembly? I.e. swivel hub, ball joints and related fasteners?

 

I think the hands on engineering is part of the appeal to enthusiasts and was more the norm than the exception when the Mini was born (no sealed unit Kingpins). Failed joints were pretty much unheard of back in the production days with Rover & BL dealerships, I'd blame the free for all in the parts industry where cost has become king.



#29 Fast Ivan

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

This area seems ripe for modern reinvention. I find that the ball joints and overall design of the hub leaves a bit to be desired (take with a grain of salt, I am a noob). The assembly, dismantling and verification procedures seem quite error-prone.
 
In my short time here I've seen many a thread regarding newcomers not having the foggiest what "tight enough" and "gloved hand tight but not ring spanner tight" even feels like. It's that kind of nebulously vague talk that makes it dangerous to perform maintenance and repair on cars, NOT the genuine wilful ignorance of people when fitting parts.
 
All in all if the specifications and assembly procedures had more concrete parameters to go off I doubt people would have as many issues with them. 

Aren't there any good after market replacements for the entire hub assembly? I.e. swivel hub, ball joints and related fasteners?


http://www.kentautod...-hub-assemblies

#30 Fast Ivan

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

The manual does state between no nip and .003" end float......




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