Best Answer Spider , 14 September 2017 - 10:34 PM
No.
Coil Springs simply don't have the travel in them for stock ride heights.
While there are many springs on the market, they all have this issue. You need around 44 mm of travel (or compression) at the cone.
Here's a rate comparison between rubber cones and the 'Blue Coils' that Mini Spares (and others) sell;-
To get a very similar rate, that will work, just go to Red Spot Cones, however, if the roads are on the rough side, I'd suggest stock cones.
Go to the full post
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 15 September 2017 - 11:06 AM
The chart I've posted here strictly shows rate, however, I feel it is quite important to add the all rubber cones have self damping as well, so in a dynamic situation, it tends to 'feel' stiffer than they really are, or put another way, it's like having an added shock absorber.
Which I suspect is why so many who have gone to coils say the ride is 'better', it's not that it's 'better' but under-dampened, which also leads to them bottoming out so much easier on rougher surfaces,,,,,,.
Well I'll be buggered if I can find it
Posted 15 September 2017 - 02:02 PM
Thanks for that chart Moke! Brilliant!
I've just converted mine from Mini Delta Fast Road Springs to Red Dot all round.
Holly heck! What a difference! To say mine is now running miles better is a huge understatement!
They're hugely better aren't they Ste?! I've just had a rebuild and included changing from Minitastic coils to standard cones. The engine is smoother, the ride is plusher and all the rattles ,squeaks and clunks have disappeared. A fantastic improvement I say!
Mini Mad
Posted 15 September 2017 - 04:04 PM
Uncle Cooperman, Voted Mr TMF 2011
Posted 15 September 2017 - 10:49 PM
You would be best off buying the original specification rubber cone springs from Mini Spares. That makes the car ride and feel as it was designed to be.
Crazy About Mini's
Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:05 PM
It is interesting and most encouraging how this time there is not a single contrary opinion. A couple of years ago it would have been very different. I have noticed an increasing trend for people to convert from coils back to cones. At one time they just would not be told. Lesson learned, the expensive way. Hopefully we will see less and less of this kind of topic once the correct answer is more widely known, and things are seemingly going in that direction.
But the forum is only characters and keystrokes, which cost little. It is more important that people don't waste their hard-earned cash on things that can't work properly. If the question does come up again, perhaps a simple link to this thread could be the definitive answer?
Uncle Cooperman, Voted Mr TMF 2011
Posted 16 September 2017 - 12:32 PM
Coil springs do work in racing where an initially high spring rate is required. Race Minis have very limited suspension travel because the tracks are totally smooth (compared to public roads). So when they enter a corner a high spring rate is needed to minimise body roll and enable sharp 'turn-in' (often assisted by a rear anti-roll bar).
But that is a pure racing requirement and not suitable for road or even rally use where the Mini already has insufficient suspension travel.
What has happened is that those who make profits from seling parts have latched onto the racing modifications and realised that some owners will buy so-called competition parts in the mistaken belief that what is good for racing is also good for the road.
One might suspect that after paying good money for such parts those owners will defend their decision rather than admit that they have made a mistake. That's just human nature. The problem then is that others may then be taken in and waste their money as well.
Looked at in a logical engineering way, there really is no way a coil spring can improve on the rising-rate rubber cone spring for road use.
Edited by Cooperman, 16 September 2017 - 12:34 PM.
Mini Mad
Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:14 PM
Uncle Cooperman, Voted Mr TMF 2011
Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:26 PM
On the contrary. I really didn't know which was best. I will however tell anyone to avoid coil springs for everyday use if asked. And probably show them the chart moke put on (very useful by the way,thanks). The ride itself is good, sticks to the road like crap to a nappy. It's just bumps,divets and uneven road surface I feel EVERY little deviation in the tarmac.
The drive and happy feeling I get from it far outweighs the imperfections. Love my mabel!
That is what the classic Mini is like and it's part of the true 'retro driving' experience you get with them.
Just enjoy it for what it is - a 60-year-old design which shows what driving was like in 1960.
Super Mini Mad
Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:37 PM
Question, if you tend to drive on roads that are a bit bumpy and not well maintained (not necessarily potholes, but just rough and uneven) would it be better to with red spot or standard cones? Im talking more for comfort rather than sporty driving?
What about driving on windy roads?
Edited by BaronVonchesto, 18 September 2017 - 04:38 PM.
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 18 September 2017 - 06:13 PM
standard.
Up Into Fourth
Posted 18 September 2017 - 08:40 PM
yeah, I love red dots but they are more sporty orientated.
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 18 September 2017 - 08:42 PM
Question, if you tend to drive on roads that are a bit bumpy and not well maintained (not necessarily potholes, but just rough and uneven) would it be better to with red spot or standard cones? Im talking more for comfort rather than sporty driving?
What about driving on windy roads?
Like Nick, I'd suggest standard cones.
But it doesn't quite 'end' there.
Going back to the chart that I posted up, if you look at the two curves for Standard Cones, you'll see there's 'Standard with Front Trumpet' and Standard with Van Rear Trumpet'. The difference here between them (apart from length) is the diameter of the flange. The stock Mini ones, front and rear are 80 mm dia, while those used in the rear of Vans (and I think some of the late produced Minis ??) is 90 mm dia.
This is where some of the rubber cone 'tuning' starts from.
Coming back to your question, while I've suggested standard rubber cones, I would suggest going to a Hilo with a flange dia of 90 - 95 mm dia to give a little more sport feel when pushed. The rate up to roughly 1/2 travel will remain the same, soft but not silly, then as it compresses further, the rate will rise above that of stock.
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 18 September 2017 - 09:06 PM
ahhh i thought it was to do with the contact surface. but having not needed to take my Pick up to bits..... also not the HiLo profile is different to the standard and van profiles so will change things.
oh i was doing something i should never do. i was assuming HiLos would be used.
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 18 September 2017 - 09:38 PM
ahhh i thought it was to do with the contact surface. but having not needed to take my Pick up to bits..... also not the HiLo profile is different to the standard and van profiles so will change things.
oh i was doing something i should never do. i was assuming HiLos would be used.
Tuning of the Rubber Cone Set up comes from the Diameter of the Flange and also it's shape / profile.
What I found in these tests (just considering stock parts for the moment) was that the rate curve is linear up to the point where the flange gets 100% contact with the cone, up to the profiled edge of the flange. The 'rising rate' comes from a combination of the shape of the rubber cone and the flange. The Rubber Cone on it's own is very near linear in rate.
This is also why Hilos should never be used as a 'fix' for sagged rubber cones.
With the Red Spots, they have a different shape and up to the point where I terminated these tests, there was no contact with the flange of the trumpet, so the shape of the trumpet / hilo will have no bearing on these. They are not tuneable, what you get out of the box is what you have, unless you fitted up a profiled trumpet that will mate up with the Cone at some point in compression, however, given it's already very high rate, I don't see the need and other parts of the front suspension are only so strong.
I'll soon be setting up a test ring of my own, with a higher capacity than that I previously used. I'll be testing a wide variety of Cone & Trumpets. From these earlier tests, I am sure a suitable trumpet profile can be made that will give comparable rates to the Red Spot in the upper end while still being more compliant (than Red Spots) at the lower end.
I also have a few more Coil Springs to test, including a Black 'Townride' Minitastic type to either prove or disprove their limitations.
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