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Brexit: The Movie


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#61 Icey

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:10 AM

Retroman, I dont think you have had any responses because your post summed it all up.
 


No, its because this stopped being a conversation long ago. Most Brexit threads turn into diatribes either for or against, no opinion is changed just the same talking points get repeated endlessly.

Look at Coopermans post, telling us how people dont understand how a vote works. I pointed out early in this thread that actually the majority of those eligible to vote did not vote to leave. No response, and Id wager if he did respond it would be to state something like you wouldnt want another vote if it went the other way - no, I wouldnt but others would....rinse and repeat.

So whats the point? No one has anything new to say.

#62 Retroman

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:25 AM

 

Leave was about taking back decision making from unelected Eurocrats, who have always been envious of the UK's success globally.

 

The figurehead for the Leave campaign (Farage) was a 'Eurocrat', he was an MEP - an elected member of the European Parlament. Can you name the non-elected ones so I can look up what they do and their impact on British laws?

 

If you're referring to the Commission then nothing they do passes without the elected representatives (MEPs) vote. Additionally the members of the Commission are put forward by our own elected representatives (MPs in the UK).

 

Democracy is not the issue here, it can't be when only 35% bothered to vote in the last EU elections.

 

Nigel Farage is still an MEP.

  You need to look at Jean Claud Junker for a start, 'elected' in a secret ballot as EU commissioner, he was the only candidate, true 'Eu democracy' in action, just a jumped up civil servant who lauds it as Eu president. David Cameron was seriously opposed to his election, and the way it was done. As ex Luxembourg president has he ever done anything to prevent the massive tax fraud and money laundering that goes through Luxembourg? or anywhere else?

  You are correct in saying "Democracy is not the issue here" its lack of it....one vote in 43 years...

and there was a turnout of 72.2 % of UK voters for the Eu vote not 35%.

I for one voted for tangible reasons and one of them is gut instinct.

Over the last 10 years our exports to the Eu have fallen by about 20% from what they were in 2011. Yes the Eu output is currently growing by whatever  %...its not difficult to improve when things were really bad. How much of that ‘growth’ is hype? artificial bond buying, or quantitive easing or artificial ‘leverage’? or the Rotterdam effect of our trade ?

Despite not being allowed to sort trade with other countries other than the EU we have a positive trade balance of £40 billion with the rest of the world and a negative one of £80 billion with the EU. Can the EU afford to pay a tariff on that?  Even our own government has doubts about the validity of the figures from EU trade due to the Rotterdam effect, which distorts the unaudited figures.

As a country we have got enough about us to thrive without a short sited undemocratic dictatorial bureaucratic expensive non-productive impractical unsustainable organisation holding us back. We are a relatively small but very capable nation, and need to make our own decisions, instead of having to be in a very expensive club with only 1 vote in 28. We have enough going on in this country without subsidising about 20 others, and having to swallow what they vote for.

Why should we stay in an expensive homogenous experimental mess? I for one am British and proud of it. The whole basic Eu setup and idea is fundamentally and massively flawed, in many ways, history repeats itself unless you learn from it. They are charging for trying to reinvent the wheel, (having never seen existing ones), dictating how to do it, with their heads in the sand, and one leg out to boot the can down the road.

I have yet to see anything positive about or from the Eu…for the man on the street or road there is nothing, it’s a pointless expensive beurocrapic non-pragmatic wasteland.

The Brits are known as the thinking man of Europe, think about it, we are bigger than that.



#63 Retroman

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:56 AM

 

Retroman, I dont think you have had any responses because your post summed it all up.
 


No, its because this stopped being a conversation long ago. Most Brexit threads turn into diatribes either for or against, no opinion is changed just the same talking points get repeated endlessly.

Look at Coopermans post, telling us how people dont understand how a vote works. I pointed out early in this thread that actually the majority of those eligible to vote did not vote to leave. No response, and Id wager if he did respond it would be to state something like you wouldnt want another vote if it went the other way - no, I wouldnt but others would....rinse and repeat.

So whats the point? No one has anything new to say.

 

I have got plenty new to say 

The important numbers in a vote are the ones who vote, and a 72.2 % turnout is high compared to a general election,

and guess what, LESS of those eligible to vote, voted to remain, that's democracy, one vote in 43 years is not.

 

Perhaps someone could have at least attempted to answer ONE of over 20 perfectly legitimate questions from my 1st post...

 

If the EU is so wonderful why do we have to pay more and more to be part of it…?

Why have many areas of the EU got massive massive unemployment  ?

We pay over 10% of the EU’s “income”. Have the EU accounts ever been audited…?   Why not?

The EU or ‘single market’ is supposed to protect consumers with high quality standards on all goods, including imports…why then is Britain flooded with cheap, nasty, poor quality and dangerous products produced in the far east…?

 

It only appeared to stop being a conversation when I asked relevant and pertinent questions...(probably too many)

so lets gear it down and have some conversation instead of another weeks radio silence...

 

I am not out to change opinion and have no political agenda, I would just like straight forward rational explanations from anyone to fairly basic questions, simples.



#64 Mito

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:42 AM

If the EU is so wonderful why do we have to pay more and more to be part of it…?

Inflation, expansion of membership, additional costs as the EU expands, rising cost of doing business. Essentially the same reasons why our government increasingly spends more and requires ever more in tax.

Why have many areas of the EU got massive massive unemployment  ?

Statements like this require facts and figures to back them up. Is unemployment rising or falling? What's the overall picture? Don't forget, Spain had a dictatorship not too many decades ago and eastern block countries joined with high levels of unemployment.

We pay over 10% of the EU’s “income”. Have the EU accounts ever been audited…?   Why not?

This will all be documented, so back this up with fact rather than random percentages. How much does the UK actually pay before and after the rebate? How much do we get back in infrastructure projects, subsidies etc.

The EU or ‘single market’ is supposed to protect consumers with high quality standards on all goods, including imports…why then is Britain flooded with cheap, nasty, poor quality and dangerous products produced in the far east…?

It does but it doesn't prevent trade with other countries outside of the EU on wto terms, you know, the terms we will be trading with anyone by when we crash out of the EU. A lot of these cheap imports are probably being sold illegally, especially electronics without proper approval. You may want to look closer to home on this one.

#65 The Matt

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:55 AM

The UK will do fine as an independent country once again, despite the BBC’s all-out mission to find every reason why leaving the EU is disastrous for the UK – and to avoid reporting the benefits. It will be the EU who have problems without our contributions to support their ongoing European Superstate project.

 

Just out of interest, what qualifies you to make that statement about how fine the UK will be?

Are you basing that opinion on your own beliefs, or on what studies and references you have read?

The whole issue with Brexit, from day one, was that nobody really knows what will happen when we leave.  Nobody truly knew what would happen if we stayed.  IMHO we won't even have a yardstick to measure how much different Brexit UK will be to if we'd stayed in.
 

I was a keen remainer during the referendum and the build up to it, now I'm of the opinion that we just need to get it sorted and go with the results of the referendum.  Only then will we find out whether we're better or not.  Working for a multi-national company like mine, it's difficult to see how Brexit will make things better for me on a personal level.  But as a whole maybe we will be better off in the UK.  Who knows, really?

 



#66 The Matt

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:12 AM

What has most amazed me is unwillingness of many of the remain camp to accept the democratic vote.
At a general election if the winning party had a majority by 4% would the opposition parties demand another election on the basis that the voters had got it wrong? Of course not.
Even 'commie' Corbyn has accepted that we are leaving.
The remainers need to understand how democracy works. The party/individual/proposal or whatever which receives the majority is the winner. Simples!

 

Some lovely generalising there.  Good work.



#67 Mito

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:27 AM

its also mathematically incorrect, since our democracy is a representative one and if you look at the number of votes cast for the victorious mp and add up all of the votes for the other candidates, you'll no doubt find that we are being ruled by a party that was elected by a minority. 

 

as there has also been a number of comments around the election of the eu president being undemocratic, id also like to point out that the election of our own pm works on a very similar basis.



#68 greenwheels

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:40 PM

 

as there has also been a number of comments around the election of the eu president being undemocratic, id also like to point out that the election of our own pm works on a very similar basis.

The way I understand it is that the EU president etc are elected by the leaders of the member states i.e. Theresa May, Angela Merkel etc. These people are anybodies. How they are selected as candidates puzzles me. I cannot find the system.

Our own PM is elected by the people as an MP after selection as a candidate by party members, i.e. you and me if you care to join the party, and then elected as leader by the other MPs who were elected by the people. So Theresa May has the common person breathing down here neck from several directions. EU leaders have no direct link with the electorate and only have to suck up to 27 people who were elected by sections of the EU population. They never have to campaign like Theresa May or Donald Trump did. If they did they would be in the dole queue.  It just doesn't feel right to me.


Edited by greenwheels, 13 March 2018 - 07:42 PM.


#69 Mito

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:09 PM

as there has also been a number of comments around the election of the eu president being undemocratic, id also like to point out that the election of our own pm works on a very similar basis.

The way I understand it is that the EU president etc are elected by the leaders of the member states i.e. Theresa May, Angela Merkel etc. These people are anybodies. How they are selected as candidates puzzles me. I cannot find the system.
Our own PM is elected by the people as an MP after selection as a candidate by party members, i.e. you and me if you care to join the party, and then elected as leader by the other MPs who were elected by the people. So Theresa May has the common person breathing down here neck from several directions. EU leaders have no direct link with the electorate and only have to suck up to 27 people who were elected by sections of the EU population. They never have to campaign like Theresa May or Donald Trump did. If they did they would be in the dole queue.  It just doesn't feel right to me.

This might answer your question

https://epthinktank....-questions-faq/

I can't vouch for the accuracy of it.

Anyway, a president chosen by the democratically elected representatives of 27 EU countries, all of which are elected to represent us, is better than a leader chosen by those who have bought membership to a party.

Neither are great systems but I think ours is ever so slightly worse since it relies on people who have bought party membership.




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