93 replies to this topic

[carbon]

For 'conventional' fires the fuel-heat-air triangle applies. Remove one of these and the fire goes out.

 

Batteries carry fuel and oxidant together. That is why battery fires can be much more difficult to put out than liquid fuel fires.

 

Link: https://en.wikipedia..._fire_incidents

[Retroman]

So in the real world the internal combustion engine burning either petrol or diesel will be around for a long time, as will the jet engine.

 

Hydrogen fuel cells are a complete pipe dream and LPG seems to be dying off.

 

All electric cars for all people are a long way off.

 

For electric cars to take over the batteries need improvements to make it realistically priced and viable.

 

The basic national grid needs rewiring and more power stations need to be built, who's going to pay for that?

 

Is it really viable en-mass at all?

 

And whats the point anyway?, have I missed something?

[Mini-dude]

For 'conventional' fires the fuel-heat-air triangle applies. Remove one of these and the fire goes out.
 
Batteries carry fuel and oxidant together. That is why battery fires can be much more difficult to put out than liquid fuel fires.
 
Link: https://en.wikipedia..._fire_incidents

If they trust them in airliner i would trust them in a car, fuel cause fire due to their higher energy density are still just as dangerous. But I do see your point.

So in the real world the internal combustion engine burning either petrol or diesel will be around for a long time, as will the jet engine.
 
Hydrogen fuel cells are a complete pipe dream and LPG seems to be dying off.
 
All electric cars for all people are a long way off.
 
For electric cars to take over the batteries need improvements to make it realistically priced and viable.
 
The basic national grid needs rewiring and more power stations need to be built, who's going to pay for that?
 
Is it really viable en-mass at all?
 
And whats the point anyway?, have I missed something?

The ic engine will still be around for some time but dont doubt it electric is here to stay. Grids will need huge amounts of investment to bring them up to date who will do it? Who knows maybe an ev tax

Edited by Mini-dude, 26 February 2018 - 12:19 AM.

[nicklouse]

 

For 'conventional' fires the fuel-heat-air triangle applies. Remove one of these and the fire goes out.
 
Batteries carry fuel and oxidant together. That is why battery fires can be much more difficult to put out than liquid fuel fires.
 
Link: https://en.wikipedia..._fire_incidents

If they trust them in airliner i would trust them in a car, fuel cause fire due to their higher energy density are still just as dangerous. But I do see your point.

So in the real world the internal combustion engine burning either petrol or diesel will be around for a long time, as will the jet engine.
 
Hydrogen fuel cells are a complete pipe dream and LPG seems to be dying off.
 
All electric cars for all people are a long way off.
 
For electric cars to take over the batteries need improvements to make it realistically priced and viable.
 
The basic national grid needs rewiring and more power stations need to be built, who's going to pay for that?
 
Is it really viable en-mass at all?
 
And whats the point anyway?, have I missed something?

The ic engine will still be around for some time but dont doubt it electric is here to stay. Grids will need huge amounts of investment to bring them up to date who will do it? Who knows maybe an ev tax

 

yes airlines allow Lithium batteries to be transported but only when they are with the passenger. you can not put them in check in luggage or even send them by most Airmail.

 

one interesting point is where the new all electric Mini is going to be made. China as they are currently leading the battery technology.

[Mini-dude]

yes airlines allow Lithium batteries to be transported but only when they are with the passenger. you can not put them in check in luggage or even send them by most Airmail.
 
one interesting point is where the new all electric Mini is going to be made. China as they are currently leading the battery technology.

Actually i was referring to the Boeing 787 Dreamliner that uses lithium-ion battery to power it's systems

[Shep76S]

So in the real world the internal combustion engine burning either petrol or diesel will be around for a long time, as will the jet engine.
 
Hydrogen fuel cells are a complete pipe dream and LPG seems to be dying off.
 
All electric cars for all people are a long way off.
 
For electric cars to take over the batteries need improvements to make it realistically priced and viable.
 
The basic national grid needs rewiring and more power stations need to be built, who's going to pay for that?
 
Is it really viable en-mass at all?
 
And whats the point anyway?, have I missed something?

Loads of capacity for charging between 10pm and 6am. Just need an incentive for people to charge then.

[Mini-dude]

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=8uG2PQk0OGM
Being able to use the bus lane is enough incentive for me lol

Edited by Mini-dude, 26 February 2018 - 08:20 AM.

[mark197]

I doubt petrol will one day be completely gone, I mean aircraft still need it and I don't see them becoming electric as fast as cars are.

It's a good point.

There is also the problem of resources for battery raw materials. Electric transport has to compete with lithium ion batteries in everyday house hold and luxury goods. With that many batteries needed worldwide in a growing population who desire such goods, the raw materials will be in very short supply. Hydrogen has to be the future in the short term.

[cal844]

A guy on an island in the north of Scotland tried hydrogen, it works very successfully, but the government wanted a tax 😂

As for batteries, they are the most polluting source of energy on the planet, then once made the power stations are also polluting the air while giving us the energy.

[carbon]

 

yes airlines allow Lithium batteries to be transported but only when they are with the passenger. you can not put them in check in luggage or even send them by most Airmail.
 
one interesting point is where the new all electric Mini is going to be made. China as they are currently leading the battery technology.

Actually i was referring to the Boeing 787 Dreamliner that uses lithium-ion battery to power it's systems

 

Ah yes, glad you mentioned that one - the 'lightweight' lithium-ion battery they ended up putting in a big heavy steel box because of fire risk...

 

Link: https://en.wikipedia...attery_problems

 

Quote 'The enclosure Boeing had to add is 185 lb (84 kg) heavier, frustratingly negating the lighter battery potential.'

[Mini-dude]

Ah yes, glad you mentioned that one - the 'lightweight' lithium-ion battery they ended up putting in a big heavy steel box because of fire risk...
 
Link: https://en.wikipedia...attery_problems
 
Quote 'The enclosure Boeing had to add is 185 lb (84 kg) heavier, frustratingly negating the lighter battery potential.'

And even with the weight penalty they still provide more current on power up and more voltage then a similar size 777 nickel cadmium battery. Does battery chemistry need work? Yes. Are their advantages yes.
What do you guys think about this https://inhabitat.co...nly-900-pounds/

Edited by Mini-dude, 27 February 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[Retroman]

lighter battery....same family as lighter fluid...?? hahah

 

We have established so far that the batteries a barely adequate fire risk and never even looked at the tax payer subsidised cost.

 

So still 3 questions nobody has even attempted to tackle;

 

The basic national grid needs rewiring and more power stations need to be built, who's going to pay for that?
 
Is it really viable en-mass at all?
 
And whats the point anyway?, have I missed something?

[nicklouse]

lighter battery....same family as lighter fluid...?? hahah

 

We have established so far that the batteries a barely adequate fire risk and never even looked at the tax payer subsidised cost.

 

So still 3 questions nobody has even attempted to tackle;

 

The basic national grid needs rewiring and more power stations need to be built, who's going to pay for that?
 
Is it really viable en-mass at all?
 
And whats the point anyway?, have I missed something?

not quite true most of the grid is actually OK.

there is enough enough capacity to produce the batteries. 

[Quincy Sparks]

 

Imagine an electric E-Type

 

 

Imagine no longer. Here's a video of one at Fully Charged.

 

To the OP - there's lots of useful & relevant info on the Fully Charged Youtube channel, including several other videos featuring retro-fitted classic cars, info & developments in battery / charging technology, and renewables in general.

[Homersimpson]

honestly I think electric cars are not viable long term. The amount of rare metals required to keep up with the exponential the surge of electric vehicle hype to manufacture current battery technolgy is simply not sustainable, not to mention the environmental impact this requires. It's more of a 10-15 year solution until we've mined the earth dry or completely revolutionized battery technology so that it's environmentally friendly and economically sustainable.

 

Hydrogen fuel cells are a possibility, but again, until we crack fusion power generation or another form of cheap and highly efficient energy generation, it's more of a technical prowess than a sustainable and green friendly transport fuel (it takes a LOT of power to break hydrogen bonds from the molecules Hydrogen is attached everywhere to).

 

Simply put, the mass hype of green transport using electricity is cack at the moment. Don't be fooled by the hype. There is no long term solution, until some major boffins crack a holy grail open. I think hybrid technology is a better transitional solution until then, given we can spread the amount of resources required vs reduced pollution and etc over a longer period, that is of unknown duration

There is a much more simple reason than this why they arn't likely to be viable for everyone for a significant amount of time if ever, its the electricity network that serves everyones homes.

 

Put simply if you live on a housing estate chance are that you and several hundred other houses are fed from the same local substation, our local network operator allow an average load of 2.2kw per house for a standard sized house with non electric heating (i.e. gas), this has worked for years on the basis that when you have your 9kw shower on your not cooking with your 6kw hob but someone else is and then someone else isn;t using their 2.2kw allowance and overall it balances out.  If the load on the transformer is slightly above its rating ocassionaly then that is acceptable.

 

If everyone has an electric car, arrives home some time from 5pm onwards, puts it on charge overnight then the network will be overloaded as a typical car charger is at least 3kw and most now want a minimum of 6kw to charge in a reasonable period.

 

Put simply if you have one its fine if everyone has one the system will be overloaded.

 

As an example where I work we have a site with 110 properties and gas fired boilers in each one, we looked at an electrically powered heating scheme using an air source heatpump with a load of 6kw to each unit and we needed to spend 70k reinforcing the infrastructure to our site.  Multiply that across the country and its big money which the electricity network providers don't have and the end consumers won't pay for it.