80 replies to this topic

[mini_pooper]

Was hoping to make some progress on the head today but work was very busy and just got home.

Parts have arrived, but I wanted to check something with those who have fitted Payers gaskets before. It looks like the one I received today has picked up a few dings on the face maybe in shipping. I've attached some pics.

Not big dings, but will these smooth out/compress and not cause a problem as the head is torque, or will they remain and give issues? I would have thought head gaskets should be 100% flat with no marks, but can anyone who knows this better let me know?

I can see the copper is separating slightly from the material underneath at the edges of the gasket, but I'm not too worried about that as compression from the studs will sort that.

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[cal844]

Was hoping to make some progress on the head today but work was very busy and just got home.

Parts have arrived, but I wanted to check something with those who have fitted Payers gaskets before. It looks like the one I received today has picked up a few dings on the face maybe in shipping. I've attached some pics.

Not big dings, but will these smooth out/compress and not cause a problem as the head is torque, or will they remain and give issues? I would have thought head gaskets should be 100% flat with no marks, but can anyone who knows this better let me know?

I can see the copper is separating slightly from the material underneath at the edges of the gasket, but I'm not too worried about that as compression from the studs will sort that.

Send it back, that's scrap imo

[Northernpower]

Completely agree, send it back.

[Rorf]

Was that ordered from Minispares - pathetic packaging to say the least.

[mini_pooper]

Hi all!

 

Engine is all back together after having spent all of Saturday tracking down a new head gasket (this time a Genuine Rover copper gasket) with no damage. Been a busy week so getting to spend time with the car has been on and off.

 

Started up, let it run a bit without coolant and turned it off. Next day, torque the head and set valves again + fill coolant. Started it up yesterday after all the work was finished (which made me very happy!) and discovered 2 issues (which made me very unhappy!).

 

First off, it was very hard to start (as it was the day before) but once it started up it had a horrible misfire when touching the throttle. I checked all leads and everything was correct so turned my suspicion to the tappet chest breather which I now have connected (but have never run connected before). To test if this was causing issues, I disconnected it from the carbs (plugged the holes there) and put the filter back on the breather canister - runs as it should without a misfire. I cleaned the breather canister thoroughly in fuel until it ran clear while I had the head off so that is as it should be, but I have a suspicion it's making the mixture way too lean since the connection to the breather enters the carbs AFTER the needle and therefore it's not taking fuel with it, acting as an air leak. They are twin HS2 1.25 inch carbs. If I want to run the breather, I think the carbs need to be set up again to compensate. Cap on the rocker cover has only a small hole, but maybe it should be unvented with HS2s to avoid air leaks?

 

Secondly, there is coolant seeping out of the head gasket on the clutch end of the head, under the heater tap. I hoped it was just the tap, however nothing is running down the head from there, it's coming out from between the head and block. Turned the engine off immediately after seeing water coming out there. Everything was immaculate when head went back on (no carbon, dust on any surface including the gasket itself) and the head and block were perfectly straight when checking with a straight edge...

 

Last hope is that the initial run without coolant didn't get it hot enough so the first retourque didn't compress the gasket enough, so I'm trying one last time to torque the head after yesterday's warm up. Going to get it looked at if that doesn't work out... 

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Edited by mini_pooper, 27 April 2018 - 08:08 AM.

[Spider]

I trust - for now - you've only filled it with water and not coolant.

 

It will leak right away with coolant and usually continue to do so. With water it allows the gasket to swell and seal. Sometimes, they do leak a little, but I wouldn't be too concerned. Do a few heat cycles and re-torque the head.

[mini_pooper]

I trust - for now - you've only filled it with water and not coolant.

 

It will leak right away with coolant and usually continue to do so. With water it allows the gasket to swell and seal. Sometimes, they do leak a little, but I wouldn't be too concerned. Do a few heat cycles and re-torque the head.

 

I have used a 33% coolant mix (33% coolant and 66% distilled water) - what do you think? Will it still swell with a high water ratio?

 

Haven't heard anywhere to use only water to start with (makes sense)... 

Edited by mini_pooper, 27 April 2018 - 08:44 AM.

[petey81]

Have a search on my content as ive sent across a guide which someone on the forum sent to me.
It explains to only fill with water to start with as I was having the same issues as you.

[mini_pooper]

Hmm... frustrating. So consensus is that the gasket needs time to swell in order seal and what I'm seeing is not unusual?

 

I was getting one drop squeezing its way out and running down the block every 3-4 seconds. To me that seemed unusual but I was not aware it needed time to swell. The big question now is, am I going to have to drain the whole system again and fill only with water, or is 33% coolant mix still going to allow it to swell?

 

Wait and test again is really the only way to know I'm sure, but if it's guaranteed not to work in theory, it won't in reality. Things that work in theory have a 50/50 chance in reality, but I have never experienced it working in reality if the theory says no to start with 

 

On to the crank/tappet chest breather and resulting misfire starting when it's connected, what do people think? Should this HS2 setup with the breather coming in after the jet have a non-vented rocker cap to prevent a vacuum leak? Only question then would be, where will the air enter the engine for the breather if not though the cap? 

[Spider]

With the coolant in the system, it may eventually seal, but will make a mess in the mean time. It may also not ever seal too.

 

Oil Filler Cap - as you've mentioned, the Air has to come in somewhere, if there's no where else, then a vented cap is an easy and acceptable option.

[mini_pooper]

With the coolant in the system, it may eventually seal, but will make a mess in the mean time. It may also not ever seal too.

 

Oil Filler Cap - as you've mentioned, the Air has to come in somewhere, if there's no where else, then a vented cap is an easy and acceptable option.

 

Thanks Moke Spider! At least I have some explanation for why this is happening. If I empty the coolant and refill with water, will that help it swell or will the coolant that has already come in contact with the gasket stop water from getting in and swelling it? Alternatively, add some rad-weld or similar?

 

Not sure if it makes a difference, but I used blue coolant, the silicate stuff from Halfords which is compatible with older engines (not the modern stuff that eats them up!).

 

Regarding the filler cap, it will have to be vented then. I can't see how a PCV Valve would help either since the misfire is also off-idle when the valve would be open anyway. They weren't fitted originally (aside from early cars) so shouldn't be any need for it. I'll leave it off until I get to a rolling road and connect it while it's there. That should get it all spot on. 

Edited by mini_pooper, 27 April 2018 - 10:44 AM.

[Spider]

Sad to waste the fresh coolant, but I'd suggest draining it and refilling with fresh water. Usually about 200 - 300 miles on that should be well enough, then a retorque and go over to coolant.

 

In regards to the crankcase breather set up, has your carb got a CCV Port on it?

 

That's a brass tube fitted to the body of the carb, comes off roughly at 45⁰ and is between the carb piston and the butterfly

[mini_pooper]

Appreciate the fast reply Moke Spider - will drain and refill with water, costs less than the wig I'll be needing if I keep pulling my hair out 

 

Both HS2s (left and right) have brass tubes facing each other at 45 degrees which Is where I have attached the breather though a Y-piece (see attached image). These tubes are located before the butterfly but after the needle and choke axle, which is why I think any air going through the breather system is going into the engine without taking any fuel with it (which will result in a lean mixture).

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[Rorf]

That's a beautiful looking engine compartment. Agree to only using water as coolant for first 500 miles. Are you tightening the cylinder head nuts as per the Haynes manual sequence and more importantly are you using a good quality torque wrench which is correctly set up. Do not over torque, stick to the manual specs and torque down in three stages.

 

I would use a composite gasket - more leeway for error and a better seal for water and oil ways.Copper gaskets, the head and block surfaces have to be immaculate and 100% true.

[mini_pooper]

That's a beautiful looking engine compartment. Agree to only using water as coolant for first 500 miles. Are you tightening the cylinder head nuts as per the Haynes manual sequence and more importantly are you using a good quality torque wrench which is correctly set up. Do not over torque, stick to the manual specs and torque down in three stages.
 
I would use a composite gasket - more leeway for error and a better seal for water and oil ways.Copper gaskets, the head and block surfaces have to be immaculate and 100% true.

Thank you! Will go to water, but it will be ok even though it’s had coolant in it already, yes? That won’t stop it “swelling”?

Haynes was followed for loosening (reverse order) and tightening again and I invested In a new high quality (calibrated) wrench, going over first at 15, then 25 then 45lbft.

Couldn’t find a composite gasket so genuine copper was what I used.

Can someone explain the theory of using only water instead of antifreeze mix for the first 500 miles? Is it to do with it making the gasket swell (antifreeze stops it swelling), or is it to do with if the coolant fluid gets into the oil, only having water will be safer as it evaporates?