10 replies to this topic

[johnR]

Today at the Downton Classic Car Show I saw (one of?)Alex Issigonis's prototype Gearless Mini. It is believed to have an engine of around 1200cc's and power is delivered by a torque converter - Issigonis got really annoyed if people called it an automatic.
The car has had a mechanical overhaul to get it running but otherwise is in original patinated condition.

Edited by johnR, 05 May 2018 - 08:48 PM.

[cal844]

Looks cool

[sledgehammer]

It's a pity they didn't have more money to try out these ideas
 

wonder if it was Issigonises baby or Jack  Daniels ?

 

I get the impression Jack Daniels would let Issigonis take credit for a lot of his work

[johnR]

Apparently this car was actually registered to Issigonis, tending to suggest he drove it for development purposes? It losses power/speed on long uphill gradients which is probably why it wasn't taken further. 

[pusb]

Two questions:

 

1. Why/how is there no cooling fan

 

2. Why/how is there no brake master cylinder? 

[timmy850]

Two questions:

 

1. Why/how is there no cooling fan

 

2. Why/how is there no brake master cylinder? 

1. Possibly there is an electric fan

 

2. No clutch cylinder 

[mab01uk]

 

The gearless concept

Alongside the '9X' engine, Issigonis began to work on a 'gearless' concept, which he christened the 'City Car'. Four gearless Minis appear in the records. The earliest is a red Mini from 1968 (NOB 529F) fitted with an adapted 1375 cc 'A-series' engine and its first incarnations, without a reverse gear. This was still on test in 1975 but has not survived. The other three (SOL 258H, LOK 576P and GNP 677S) were fitted with his experimental '9X' engine. The third car was later converted back to a geared car.

Issigonis became cross when people called his gearless vehicles 'automatic'. They had no clutch, gearbox or any other form of variable ratio transmission. Instead, forward and reverse drive was taken through a torque converter. The engine was tuned and increased in capactiy to give sufficient performance over a wide rev-band.

Issigonis insisted: "it is inconceivable that people would put up with so much work gear shifting when this could be completely eliminated while also achieveing better overall fuel economy". Among other potential benefits he listed were smoothness of drive even for inexperienced drivers; easy servicing since there were fewer parts to break; and more interior space. What he failed to mention was that the car ran beautifully over 20mph, reaching that speed in the first place was something of a challenge. This was only too evident in the test drive as they struggled to gather sufficient momentum in the Clee Hills and mountains of Wales. Tested on a 1 in 5 gradient at the top of the Bwlch-y-Groes Pass in 1975, the car performed respectably when it was able to make its approach above 20mph. Below that speed it could barely maintain 5mph over the summit.

 

The oldest surving gearless car

SOL 258H is the oldest of three 'ADO20' production Minis modified to carry a 4 cylinder '9X' engine and is the oldest surviving gearless car. Purchased by Issigonis in 1975, a repair sheet of 1983 describes it as the 'preferred transport of Sir Alex Issigonis' and a trail of paperwork shows it was used extensively as part of his development programme over a period of seventeen years.

As part of the development sliding windows replaced winding windows; external door hinges replaced concealed ones; and front-end proportions were reshaped for efficienct installations of a more compact '9X' engine. All three 'ADO20' Minis featured the revised vertical strut suspensions requiring the spare wheel to be mounted under the boot in a cradle while the battery was moved to sit under the bonnet. To minimise weight, aluminium body panels such as those used on competition versions of the Mini were fitted. On SOL 258H, the alloy wings and bonnet have survived but hte deterioration of the doors and boot lid necessitated their replacement with steel in the mid 1980s. Always referred to in reports as 'the green car', the original shade was Connaught but in 1985 it was re-sprayed Tundra and given a complete re-trim.

Enging: 4 cylinder 1500cc 9X

Speed: 83 mph on test

Transmission: forward and reverse via a torque converter

Registration mark: 2-door salon SOL 258H

http://www.atwellwil...rlessrsquo.html

 

 

The OHC engine /gearbox Alec Issigonis designed for the 9X Mini replacement........sadly cancelled when British Leyland took over BMC.

Edited by mab01uk, 06 May 2018 - 07:38 AM.

[mab01uk]

 

Two questions:

 

1. Why/how is there no cooling fan

 

2. Why/how is there no brake master cylinder? 

1. Possibly there is an electric fan

 

2. No clutch cylinder 

 

 

As has been said probably an electric fan in the wheel arch as later Minis, a sensor and cable can be seen on the radiator header tank.....and the master cylinder is for the brakes but a gearless car does not need the extra clutch master cylinder, as also in automatic Minis.

Edited by mab01uk, 06 May 2018 - 07:44 AM.

[sledgehammer]

you would think now a days this should be looked at again

 

surly the faults could be sorted out 

 

would be better that the CVT carp 

I seem to remember some experimental engine oil driven torque converters being used as centrifugal oil filters (they do it naturally anyway)

[DeadSquare]

 

The gearless concept

Alongside the '9X' engine, Issigonis began to work on a 'gearless' concept, which he christened the 'City Car'. Four gearless Minis appear in the records. The earliest is a red Mini from 1968 (NOB 529F) fitted with an adapted 1375 cc 'A-series' engine and its first incarnations, without a reverse gear. This was still on test in 1975 but has not survived. The other three (SOL 258H, LOK 576P and GNP 677S) were fitted with his experimental '9X' engine. The third car was later converted back to a geared car.

Issigonis became cross when people called his gearless vehicles 'automatic'. They had no clutch, gearbox or any other form of variable ratio transmission. Instead, forward and reverse drive was taken through a torque converter. The engine was tuned and increased in capactiy to give sufficient performance over a wide rev-band.

Issigonis insisted: "it is inconceivable that people would put up with so much work gear shifting when this could be completely eliminated while also achieveing better overall fuel economy". Among other potential benefits he listed were smoothness of drive even for inexperienced drivers; easy servicing since there were fewer parts to break; and more interior space. What he failed to mention was that the car ran beautifully over 20mph, reaching that speed in the first place was something of a challenge. This was only too evident in the test drive as they struggled to gather sufficient momentum in the Clee Hills and mountains of Wales. Tested on a 1 in 5 gradient at the top of the Bwlch-y-Groes Pass in 1975, the car performed respectably when it was able to make its approach above 20mph. Below that speed it could barely maintain 5mph over the summit.

 

The oldest surving gearless car

SOL 258H is the oldest of three 'ADO20' production Minis modified to carry a 4 cylinder '9X' engine and is the oldest surviving gearless car. Purchased by Issigonis in 1975, a repair sheet of 1983 describes it as the 'preferred transport of Sir Alex Issigonis' and a trail of paperwork shows it was used extensively as part of his development programme over a period of seventeen years.

As part of the development sliding windows replaced winding windows; external door hinges replaced concealed ones; and front-end proportions were reshaped for efficienct installations of a more compact '9X' engine. All three 'ADO20' Minis featured the revised vertical strut suspensions requiring the spare wheel to be mounted under the boot in a cradle while the battery was moved to sit under the bonnet. To minimise weight, aluminium body panels such as those used on competition versions of the Mini were fitted. On SOL 258H, the alloy wings and bonnet have survived but hte deterioration of the doors and boot lid necessitated their replacement with steel in the mid 1980s. Always referred to in reports as 'the green car', the original shade was Connaught but in 1985 it was re-sprayed Tundra and given a complete re-trim.

Enging: 4 cylinder 1500cc 9X

Speed: 83 mph on test

Transmission: forward and reverse via a torque converter

Registration mark: 2-door salon SOL 258H

http://www.atwellwil...rlessrsquo.html

 

 

The OHC engine /gearbox Alec Issigonis designed for the 9X Mini replacement........sadly cancelled when British Leyland took over BMC.

 

 

In the 1960's there used to be a scrap yard in Wolverhampton, owned by a chap called Graham Cooper who had an arrangement with Longbridge to take all sorts of bits, mostly floor sweepings and defective parts, but lots of goodies found their way there like a truck load of 1100 block crank rods and pistons, but no hole for the dipstick.

 

There were sometimes more interesting things, once an out sized mini shell and on another occasion an 1100 sports car (think of how an A40 became an MG Midget), but they were always cut up or treated to a lump hammer and had to be scrapped.

 

One day, his brother-in-law, Maurice, was taking the automatic mini gearbox off an odd looking engine.  End on, the block looked like a bell, and it had an overhead cam.

 

In side, the first thing we discovered was that it was a 5 speed box, the next was that the 3 bearing crank was recessed in the smashed  ALLUMINUIM  block like an Imp, and when we took off the head with 8 ports on one side, by swapping the cam pulley and distributor housings, the head was reversible.

 

The ports were huge for anyone used to a mini, and staggered up and down at about the correct angle for a semi downdraft S.U. , with the exhausts sloping slightly downwards.

 

Looking down the bore was like looking down a well (well it was BMC so it was bound to have a long stroke).  It was pre-decimal, and as near as we could measure it, the bore and stroke were 3" X  4" which using 22/7 as pi gave about 1850 cc.

 

I remember that we couldn't figure out where the oil pump was, and eventually found that it was built inside the crank pulley, and the water pump was on the end of the dynamo like a power steering pump.

 

I begged Maurice to let me have the engine, but he knew me well enough to know that I'd try and weld it up, and that was against their Longbridge agreement.

 

It must have had a fair bit of torque, which probably needed the automatic box, and presumably its long stroke didn't like revving, hence the 5 speed.

 

I don't suppose I'll never know its origins, or if there were any others like it, but I suspect that it was an ancestor of the Maxi engine.

Edited by DeadSquare, 06 May 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[DeadSquare]

Two questions:

 

1. Why/how is there no cooling fan

 

2. Why/how is there no brake master cylinder? 

 

 

 

I find the filler cap of the master cylinder, interesting.

 

Fed up with spilled hydraulic fluid because the fill hole was hard to aim for behind the pipes, I used to swap the guts from the brake to the clutch master cylinder and vice versa, and by rotating them 180 degrees, the reservoirs are more easily filled.

Edited by DeadSquare, 07 May 2018 - 05:30 PM.