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Car Won't Turnover And Won't Move When Being Pushed In Gear


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#16 liirge

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 12:10 PM

Sorry guys, I can't see this being a Gearbox issue as stepping on the clutch will disconnect the engine from the gearbox and if it was the gearbox, you'd be able to turn the engine back and forth a few degrees due to backlash through the drop gears.

 

Likewise, I can't see it being the C Clip and this is nested within the flywheel and can't dislodge. If the Primary Gear or thrusts had disintegrated, again, I doubt that would lock it up.

 

Having said those items, I'm at a bit of a loss here as to what to suggest it could be, but I do think it'll be an engine out and at the very least a part strip. Perhaps before doing this, whip the Flywheel & Clutch out just in case a bolt has walked out and jammed it.

 

 

Engine is out, but I've  misplaced by flywheel puller, so i'm waiting to source another one. 

The engine can be moved back and forth a couple of degrees on the crank pulley.


Edited by liirge, 25 May 2018 - 12:11 PM.


#17 Rorf

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 04:17 PM

Will be interesting to see what the problem is :gimme:



#18 ukcooper

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Posted 31 May 2018 - 02:32 PM

Don't leave me this way I cant survive I cant stay alive , don't leave me this way .....................ohhhhhhhhh reply to this ............lmao.... Mr spider love the picture.....

#19 liirge

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 04:38 PM

THEY WERE THE RIGHT WAY ROUND. - before anyone says a thing. 

 

So, what's happened. 

From what I can tell, the crank thrust bearing has disintegrated, the copper part of it appears to have become unbonded from the other metal (steel?) and has then decided to drop into the gearbox to be eaten up between 1st gear and it's counterpart in the lay shaft. 

 

What I'm not worried about: the gearbox, it'll be fine once I clean it a bit and take this miscreant piece of copper out between the gears. 

 

What I am worried about: The crank, we can see there is a lot of bluing on the crank. There is also a bit of concern on where the thrust bearing sits, it appears to have developed some sort of notch, I'm thinking that may have to be ground back flat. not sure on that one though. 

 

As you can see it has had a centre main strap inserted, I'm wondering whether where that sits, the tab that holds the thrust bearing in, has been ground a bit thin maybe. 

 

There's also a bit of fret welding evident on the crank nose, opinions? I was hoping that I may be able to just rub it down with some wet and dry. 

 

Anyway let the photos do the talking!

 

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Edited by Moke Spider, 08 June 2018 - 06:35 PM.


#20 Spider

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:48 PM

(I've edited your post to insert the photos)

 

Oh dear, not good.

 

It appears from the blueing of the crank that the clutch was riding, though, it could be from the centre main strap.

 

Any photos of the crank?

 

Sorry, but I've gotta say, I don't like those centre main straps one bit and quite honestly, they are never needed and by fitting them, only serves to weaken the centre main cap rather than reinforce it. The longer bolts, from what I can see, also appear a lesser grade / quality than the originals.

 

I'd suggest at this juncture, it maybe cheaper to go to a different block. I suggest this as if you wanted to continue with the centre main strap, there's possibly some machine work needed to sort out the thrust recesses on the block, which will take time to firstly measure if there is an issue and be costly to rectify. Likewise, just leaving the centre strap off now is not an option, and it would be even more costly to have a new cap made. I'm only just putting this out there.

 

If the crank is still straight, it can be saved, the tail will clean up, but, as you've mentioned the thrust face face now needs a grind, and this is only a small bore engine, it maybe cheaper to fit another crank.



#21 liirge

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:55 PM

Can you define the block recess you're talking about, I'm assuming what you mean is where the thrust washer sits on the cap and block? If so it hasn't got any ware on it. The back of the thrust washer never moved. It is literally the copper face against the crank that has detatched itself.

I don't think the clutch was riding, not in the classical sense. I think the thrust face failed almost imminently, and made the clutch impossible to adjust due to huge change and variance of lateral movement in the crank.

I appreciate you're input spider, I respect your advice, from what I've seen here and on the other forum you're a knowledgeable chap.
I want to save the block, it is quite modified and overbored. As you can see the crank has had a bit of work done it too.

Edited by liirge, 08 June 2018 - 07:56 PM.


#22 Spider

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:17 PM

I won't say it can't happen, but I gotta say, I've never known any engine bearing to delaminate.

 

Given that this is on the 'work side' in regards to the clutch and that there was enough heat made to turn it blue, I would be looking closely at all that, including any distortion / misalignment of the machined recesses that the thrust sit in.

 

Probably not what you'd like to hear, but machining or grinding the back of the bearing cap to fit a strap does result in some distortion of it. They are made from castings and all castings have internal stresses in them, that's normal. However, when castings are machined, some of the stresses are relived, usually by removal, and in doing so, the casting changes shape. In the case of a bearing cap, I'd expect this to have more of an effect on the Main Bearing Tunnel rather than the thrust faces, but anything is possible and all needs to be checked.

 

On that, how does the Main Bearing Look?

 

Do you recall what the crank end float was on building it up?

 

What type of clutch is fitted?

 

Cheers for the kind words :proud:



#23 KTS

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 11:04 PM

 the damage is consistent with excessive force being transmitted through the clutch assembly onto the crank shaft forcing it through the thrust washer and into the bearing web

 

i suspect that if you look closely at the entire crank assembly you'll find the whole thing has been forced across through the block



#24 liirge

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 09:58 AM

I won't say it can't happen, but I gotta say, I've never known any engine bearing to delaminate.

 

Given that this is on the 'work side' in regards to the clutch and that there was enough heat made to turn it blue, I would be looking closely at all that, including any distortion / misalignment of the machined recesses that the thrust sit in.

 

Probably not what you'd like to hear, but machining or grinding the back of the bearing cap to fit a strap does result in some distortion of it. They are made from castings and all castings have internal stresses in them, that's normal. However, when castings are machined, some of the stresses are relived, usually by removal, and in doing so, the casting changes shape. In the case of a bearing cap, I'd expect this to have more of an effect on the Main Bearing Tunnel rather than the thrust faces, but anything is possible and all needs to be checked.

 

On that, how does the Main Bearing Look?

 

Do you recall what the crank end float was on building it up?

 

What type of clutch is fitted?

 

Cheers for the kind words :proud:

It looks OK, there has been some minor scoring (can't feel with a nail, but visible) on the edge where the thrust was, I suspect either heat or bits got in and have made those marks. But I've run an engine on much worse shells before. I am going to replace the mains, just because, why not as I'm there. 

 

I don't remember the end float off hand at all, but it would have been within the defined tolerance of an old Haynes. Measured on a DTI. 

 

I get what you're saying on the cap, I am now having second thoughts on my stance on the centre main straps, having this happen to me. 

 

I think I'm going to get the crank ground flat again, and then I'm going to put new main shells back and new thrusts, and I'm just going to go from there. I may replace the big ends depending on what I see when I get there. 



#25 Cooperman

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 11:56 AM

The only time I have heard of anything like that it was due to the engine being initially primed with oil by spinning over with the plugs out prior to initial start up with the heavy-duty clutch pushed down. The result was a lack of oil on the thrust face and the assembly lubrication was insufficient. Spinning it over with the clutch depressed for, maybe, 30 to 40 seconds caused the crank to 'pick-up' on the thrust bearing face with the result similar to the above.

Could this have happened here?

The other thing could be clutch over-throw due to incorrect settings or even a bent clutch cover plate (I had that once with an after-market competition clutch assembly).



#26 KTS

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 01:42 PM

i've had previous experience of this type of failure after incorrectly re-assembling the clutch assembly with the lock washers under the driving straps

 

being young and stupid, i persevered with having to ram the clutch pedal into the floor to get the clutch to disengage.  fortunately i didn't have to persevere for too long as the engine gave out fairly quickly... 



#27 Spider

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 08:06 PM

 

I think I'm going to get the crank ground flat again, and then I'm going to put new main shells back and new thrusts, and I'm just going to go from there. I may replace the big ends depending on what I see when I get there. 

 

 

Just before you go to that expense, can I suggest checking the crank first?

 

There's the obvious of the journal finish, sizes and roundness but also check it for straightness.

 

Fit the crank in to an engine block with only 2 slipper bearings, in no. 1 and no.3 Mains, then with your DTI, check on the centre Main for run out and also on the tail of the crank where the back bush of the Primary Gear runs.

 

If it is found to be out, it's best to straighten it first, even if having it ground. It is a normal operation as part of Crankshaft reconditioning. If it is ground while bent, then the nose and tail of the crank will forever have run out. You can have it done, or do it yourself of you have a press and some hardwood or aluminum blocks. Go easy to start with so you can get a feel for it, and it will need what appears alarming counter bending to straighten it, none the less, set aside plenty of time to press a little and check every time. After you feel you have it straight, leave it for a few days and check again, as it can come back a little.



#28 liirge

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 12:12 PM

 

 

I think I'm going to get the crank ground flat again, and then I'm going to put new main shells back and new thrusts, and I'm just going to go from there. I may replace the big ends depending on what I see when I get there. 

 

 

Just before you go to that expense, can I suggest checking the crank first?

 

There's the obvious of the journal finish, sizes and roundness but also check it for straightness.

 

Fit the crank in to an engine block with only 2 slipper bearings, in no. 1 and no.3 Mains, then with your DTI, check on the centre Main for run out and also on the tail of the crank where the back bush of the Primary Gear runs.

 

If it is found to be out, it's best to straighten it first, even if having it ground. It is a normal operation as part of Crankshaft reconditioning. If it is ground while bent, then the nose and tail of the crank will forever have run out. You can have it done, or do it yourself of you have a press and some hardwood or aluminum blocks. Go easy to start with so you can get a feel for it, and it will need what appears alarming counter bending to straighten it, none the less, set aside plenty of time to press a little and check every time. After you feel you have it straight, leave it for a few days and check again, as it can come back a little.

 

Will do, great bit of advice there.






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