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Renewing Copper Brake Lines


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#1 bdean

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 09:28 AM

Looking for some opinions. I decided to renew all of the brake lines on my 1997 mini. The old ones probably could have been reused but I thought as they were >20 years old I would fit new.

 

I bought a complete Automec set.

 

To my surprise the flares do not match the original lines. For example, where you would make the connection to the 3-way t-piece at the rear or to the rear cylinder the originals are the the correct DIN "bubble flare".

 

All of the flares on the Automec replacements are SAE flares. Is this going to be an issue? Would you expect the flares to match to original lines? The FAQ on the Automec website states "Universal flares are deliberately used in every instance to be sure of giving the safest possible connection". Not sure what they mean by this. Comparison below.

 

cZ0imAJl.jpg



#2 richmondclassicsnorthwales

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:05 AM

You will have issues, they should be single flares, the only lines with double flares are the rear subframe lines where the lines join the flexis

 

The flexis are shaped to accept double flares, you can see how they are shaped to accept the flare

 

You could end up with fluid all over the place, and you wont be able to send them back as they will state they have been fitted


Edited by richmondclassicsnorthwales, 14 January 2019 - 10:29 AM.


#3 Swift_General

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:57 AM

The pipes will no doubt have 'universal flares' which are different to both traditional single (bubble) or double flares but can be used in place of both, and although I now have a flaring tool I have successfully used these in the past with no issues. You'll find quite a few of the aftermarket suppliers sell these.

#4 Rorf

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:41 PM

The pipe on the right is a female flare and on a male joint is totally incorrect. The one on the left is a male SAE flare which is the correct one. I was supplied a few pipes from minispares which had the exact same problem. If you use them they will leak.

 

Double flare - what's that? Ah yes a double flare is a female flare and a bubble flare is a male flare in SAE terminology.


Edited by Rorf, 14 January 2019 - 12:46 PM.


#5 richmondclassicsnorthwales

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 01:01 PM

You have to have the correct flare to join, they are made the way they are for a reason

 

Another point to add is that I hope they put the correct UNF and metric fittings on.  UNF will go into a metric hole - all be it very ill fitting, but a Metric will not go into UNF - one point to look out for 

 

Putting a double flare into a concave fitting will leak



#6 Swift_General

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 02:09 PM


Putting a double flare into a concave fitting will leak


Agreed. But a universal flare which the OP is referring to is different to a double flare, albeit they look similar. If you look carefully at a universal flare, it is both convex (around the wider part of the flare) and concave (closer to its bore) - hence why it is able to mate with either.

This explains more:


http://www.mossmotor...iversal-flares/

#7 richmondclassicsnorthwales

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:55 PM

One of the reasons I do not comment on this forum a lot is because of the above.

 

If you don,t know what flare you have on a brake line, then don,t mess with brakes  simple and keep it simple, single or double flares

 

Keep it straight forward and fit what what was there in the first place 



#8 Moke Spider

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 06:29 PM

My own view is that the flare must be of the right form, as mentioned by Richmond and Rorf. There are different shapes for different purposes and fittings. I kinda get the impression that this kit is just 'lazy'.

 

This is the Austin Rover's advise on use of Brake Pipe fittings, threads and flare types;-

 

K3RA4Ij.jpg

 

I know here in Aust, Copper Brake Lines are not legal for street use and I'm sure it's the same on the track. I thought this may have also been the case in the UK. Are those line copper ?

I once tried the brass tube nits and wasn't at all fussed by them.



#9 richmondclassicsnorthwales

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 06:42 PM

Don,t only like the above, I love it !!

 

My sentiments exactly,  where the hell would we be with universal ruddy fittings on all brake pipes, ??

 

It has already raised the question as bdean raised it in the first place as they are not happy and unsure !!  Says it all !!

 

Shove your ruddy universal fittings 

 

Thanks Moke for the above illustration, really helpful  !!  Fantastic !!



#10 Swift_General

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 07:22 PM

I know Automec sell both copper and cupro-nickel coiled pipe as that's where I get mine from. But I'll only buy the cupro-nickel variety on safety grounds. I once had an old copper pipe off the car in my hand, and the union fell off just with light force, I assume because of fatigue. I'm surprised people are allowed to sell the stuff here in the UK. Cupro-nickel is only a little more expensive, and altjough a harder material, still easy to form with a decent flaring tool.

#11 bdean

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 07:27 PM

Looks like I opened a can of worms

The reason for posting is that I am aware of what flares I needed and was surprised that the new kit supplied by Automec through Mini Spares did not match my expectations. Similarly they lengths aren’t even an exact match!

Lots of people must have ordered these without paying it any attention?

Mini Spares makes no mention of the use of a Universal Flares.

Reading the information from Swift_General then OK Universal Flares may still be OK.

So I have a few options. Try these pipes with Universal Flares. Try and get a refund on this set and order a new set with matched flares or buy my own flaring tool and redo the set I have correctly.

#12 Moke Spider

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 07:50 PM

Don,t only like the above, I love it !!

 

My sentiments exactly,  where the hell would we be with universal ruddy fittings on all brake pipes, ??

 

It has already raised the question as bdean raised it in the first place as they are not happy and unsure !!  Says it all !!

 

Shove your ruddy universal fittings 

 

Thanks Moke for the above illustration, really helpful  !!  Fantastic !!

 

Cheers.
 

Noted in particular Austin Rover's advise in regards to fares is " The correct Metric or Unified pipe flares must be used " (bolding is mine)

 

 

Looks like I opened a can of worms
 

 

I think you asked a sensible and valid question.



#13 richmondclassicsnorthwales

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:48 PM

I would have made you a set with Goodridge Stainless braided Hoses and Cupro Nickel Lines all labelled for under the cost what was paid to Automec, I have being making these for years.

 

You should always look for the little man with reputation for quality

 

Thanks again Moke  your a star with a capital  "S "


Edited by richmondclassicsnorthwales, 14 January 2019 - 08:51 PM.


#14 Carlos W

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:49 PM

I would have made you a set with Goodridge Stainless braided Hoses and Cupro Nickel Lines all labelled for under the cost what was paid to Automec, I have being making these for years.
 
You should always look for the little man with reputation for quality


I got mine from you.

The labelling really simplified things

#15 richmondclassicsnorthwales

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:56 PM

Thanks for that Carlos

 

Just shows that simplicity is best, 

 

Universal my arse !!! 

 

As Moke says  " Lazy"


Edited by richmondclassicsnorthwales, 14 January 2019 - 09:00 PM.





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