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Maestro Engine


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#1 Colinmac1330

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:06 PM

A few weeks back I started a thread about putting a Maxi engine in a mini but after some thought and the advice from the post I decided to go a different route. I have now bought a Maestro 1275 engine and 5spd gearbox with the idea of putting it in a Mini.

 

I know this is a big task and not straightforward but basically I was wondering if anyone had ever done or heard of this conversion being done? I know the block has been used in a mini before but I mean the full unit gearbox and all?

 

On receiving the engine today I do note that the gearbox is rather on the large side so if it turns out to be too big of a task I always have the fallback of using the block etc as I have a spare 1275 metro crank in stock.

 

Look forward to the responses  :proud:



#2 pete l

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:26 PM

I don't see the point of going to all that trouble to end up with basically the same engine !!!



#3 nicklouse

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:32 PM

don't think it has been done due to the cost for little gain. and then I think there were issues with getting suitable final drives as the maestro wheels were much bigger.

 

the block is basically the same as the MPi and the head had the larger valves but that's it. lots of work for next to no gain.



#4 nicklouse

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:38 PM

http://www.theminifo...-maestro-engine

http://www.theminifo...tro-1275-engine

http://www.theminifo...box-onto-a-1275



#5 Colinmac1330

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:47 PM

I get that it would be a lot of work for little gain, but a gain is a gain  :proud: . As far as the boxes go it is a VW box and has been used extensively over the years as far as I know so plenty of gear sets and final drives available I'd guess. Also has the benefit of bypassing the drop gears.



#6 Spider

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 05:59 PM

I must admit before going too far here, I am not too familiar with the engine / gearbox from a Maestro in particular, but somewhat familiar with the layout.

 

 but a gain is a gain  :proud: .

 

Respectfully, I don't think there would be any gain here and in fact a backward step. You may make some very small headway by loosing the drop gears, but I doubt it would be hardly noticeable in terms of driving performance.

 

Where I see this as loosing the most is in the suspension and in particular, the steering department. One reasons the original Mini 'package' worked as well as it did  was that the Engine was over the Gearbox. This makes the entire Power Unit quite narrow and this in turn, allows the front wheels to be bought closer to it and still have an acceptable turning circle, while keeping the overall width of the car small. Off hand, other than the Maxi, I don't know of any other car that did that, all others are end on, and so are that much wider.

 

Also, as Nick touched on, you'll struggle with the issue of a sensible final drive ratio. It will be quite short and so in a Mini, be screaming all the time.

 

 

I admire your looking in to and thinking about doing something different for an engine / transmission swap. I know loads of different power units have been fitted over the years to the Mini and these have all had their pros and cons. Why not look to a diesel package? The Diahatsu Charade had a 3 cylinder Turbo Diesel that was pretty good, compact and very reliable. Another could come from one of the Hyundi range.



#7 Colinmac1330

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 07:04 PM

Few different reasons. One I know an a-series inside out plus tuning options are plenty for an a-series and in fact I have a few trick bits that can be easily transferred. Plus when travelling in convoy if anything was to go wrong there is a good chance someone else would have the parts if I didn't.

#8 mab01uk

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 07:10 PM


Off hand, other than the Maxi, I don't know of any other car that did that, all others are end on, and so are that much wider.

 

 

Other gearbox in sump layouts with shared oil were the transverse versions of the BMC/BL B-Series as used in Austin/Morris 1800, also the 6 cylinder 2200 'Landcrab' /Princess and later the O-Series unit as used in the BL Princess, Ambassador range.

Like the Maxi engine/box the 'B' series engine & gearbox was also transplanted into a few Minis in the 1960/70's but the extra front end weight often upset the handling of the Mini. The 1800/2200 gearbox has also been used a few times to put 'hybrid' fwd transverse mounted Rover V8 engines into Minis.....as the Rover V8 is alloy the weight issue is no worse than the cast iron B-Series unit but still not ideal for the Mini. It is done more just because of the engineering challenge of having a V8 engine under a Mini bonnet driving the front wheels.

There were a few other car manufacturers like Peugeot who adopted the BMC transverse gearbox in sump layout but ultimately the end on gearbox with separate oil became the norm for most modern fwd cars.

 

Interestingly the first car with the modern end on fwd gearbox layout appears to be the Autobianchi Primula:-

"Fiat's chief designer, Dante Giacosa, recognized the potential of the BMC Mini fwd concept and sought ways to improve on it - namely by removing the transmission from the sump. This would produce a larger overall powertrain unit but this was not essential in the type of cars Giacosa proposed. In return such cars would be easier to service and repair and benefit from greater refinement and lower noise levels. Fiat was cautiously accepting of Giacosa's proposal and decided to experiment without risking damage to the image of its popular Fiat-branded cars. Thus the Autobianchi Primula emerged—a car marketed under a less crucial nameplate, for which it was an entry into a whole new class of vehicles.[2] The key to Giacosa's design was a compact concentric clutch release mechanism using a hydraulic piston mounted inside a hollow gearbox input shaft, thus doing away with the traditional external clutch lever and release arm and the internal clutch thrust bearing. This allowed the powertrain to be short enough to fit across the Primula's engine bay while allowing for the required steering angles and the determined overall width. With the transmission mounted end-on to the engine and the final drive therefore offset from the car's centre line, the Primula had unequal-length driveshafts.

The Primula's particular configuration of front wheel drive and transverse engine, but with a gearbox on the end of the engine, ingenious Fiat-designed clutch release mechanism and unequal length drive shafts, rather than a gearbox in the sump like the Mini, has become universal among front-wheel-drive cars. Suspension was a single wishbone and upper transverse leaf spring in the front and a "dead" rear axle. The Primula is thus a car design of far greater significance than is often realised, as its design influence spread, far beyond even the mainstream high volume Fiats such as the 128 and the 127 of the late 1960s which used its driveline layout combined with MacPherson struts; to every front wheel drive transverse engined car in production today."

https://wikivisually...bianchi_Primula


Edited by mab01uk, 21 February 2019 - 07:32 PM.


#9 mab01uk

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 07:36 PM

A quick google also turned up this Lamborghini V12...... :mrcool:

(Apparently they made it a split-sump later with separate oil).

 

 

CNnG4mv.jpg


Edited by mab01uk, 21 February 2019 - 07:37 PM.


#10 mab01uk

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 07:50 PM

Noted from another thread on Maestro into Mini:-

"Another possible access problem for the Maestro in a compact Mini engine bay is the A-Series engine needs to be installed backwards ( ie, carbs at the front, dizzy and plugs at the back ) because the gearbox is bolted on the side and therefore does not have the 'reverse of drive' which is achieved with the transfer gears and the 'under the engine' gearbox in the mini, the gearbox is directly connected ( through the clutch ) to the crank."



#11 timmy850

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 10:02 PM

I've also though about this a bit and it is an interesting idea, even if not 100% practical..

 

A modern 5 or 6 speed gearbox joined up to an A-series engine would be really nice. You would be able to separate the gearbox and engine oil, and use a Maestro or even a RWD based engine and then just adapt a gearbox and clutch setup.

 

Of course the big downside to this is that you need to rotate the engine around 180 degrees so that the engine rotates the right way to work with the gearbox. Theoretically you could re-engineer the engine to spin the opposite direction?

 

I would be interested in how (if at all) the Maestro engine fits in the mini body shell. The radiator and fan are going to be on the wrong side, I wonder if going to a front radiator would free up some room, although you will have the exhaust and intake at the front to contend with. 



#12 burchy35

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 08:33 AM

How about fitting one of these, they sound great in s spitfire. ?

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#13 pete l

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 10:31 AM

And it already has the primary gear on the crank !!!!

 

  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



#14 mab01uk

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 11:20 AM

 

John Dodd in his 27 litre Merlin engined car known as “The Beast”....

 

"In the early 1970s, eccentric Englishman John Dodd took possession of a home-brewed monstrosity that used a 27-litre Rolls-Royce Merlin engine as its primary power source. It wasn’t the engine that the company took exception to, however – it was the trademark(ed) grille it wore on its lengthy nose…"

https://www.classicd...ted-rolls-royce



#15 burchy35

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 12:09 PM

Now that's what I am talking about! Love it. . There are some true clever and crazy people out there.




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