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Tv Licensing Laid Bare


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#46 Cooperman

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:34 PM

My Grandson didn't want to go to University, even though my wife & I said that we would help him.

Instead he took a 4-year apprenticeship with the County Council to become a domestic property surveyor. He completed this successfully and stayed for a couple of years. Then he moved on to work for a company who rented out social housing.

Last September he moved to vancouver to become Property Maintenance Manager for a Canadian company. He has over 14 people reporting to him, plus several sub-contractors. At 24 I am proud of him and he has no student debt.

He is 'Cooperkid' on here and I am collecting the Mini which he restored when he was 15 and sold to fund his first road car. he has bought this Mini back and, believe it or not, I have to restore it and ship it to Vancouver ASAP!

 

Wow, talk about 'thread drift'!



#47 Icey

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 10:36 PM

The phrase look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves is very true.


As I pointed out earlier in this thread - that's just not true when it comes to housing for many people. When the prices are rising faster than you can possibly save, i.e. at a multiple of wage rises, no matter how hard you save you will always be priced out.

Let's put some more numbers to this, only ball-parks mind so there's scope for adjustments if you have more accurate examples to hand.

Here's a house in my road.
 

NXvS0FY.png


Let's say I start saving in 2003 and I'm earning £30k a year (above the national average and certainly more than I was earning at the time). I would need a deposit of around £30k (based on today's standards). So that's my target.

A salary of £30k gives me ~£2k a month after tax. You're likely going to be spending roughly 50% of that on food, bills and rent so lets assume a maximum monthly saving of ~£1000 (assuming no student debt and no pension contributions). In reality that's likely to drop to around £800-900 when you take in all the weird things that happen (cars exploding, electrical goods giving out etc..) for simplicity lets just set that to £850.

So it'll take me about 3 years to save a £30k deposit. Dead easy, right? 3 years scrimping and saving, no problem at all.

Big problem. In those three years the house price has gone up £22k. So now (again, according to today's standards) I need a £50k deposit. That adds another 2 years before my deposit is large enough.

Guess what's happened in those two years? Yeah, you know how this ends. This hypothetical me would get there in the end, I expect it would take ~9-10 years to catch up assuming a linear price rise and that I've managed to continually save £850 a month, i.e. in that ~10 years I've not lost my job, my car hasn't needed replacing/major works, my landlord hasn't hiked the rents/kicked me out, I haven't had a child etc..etc..

 

Now add on a student loan and pension contributions. That knocks £200 off your take-home pay, again, pretty obvious what effect that's going to have. In fact adding student loans adds another dimension to this as it means I won't start this process until I'm ~24. That means, even in this perfect scenario, I won't be in what would have previously been considered a 'stable' position until I'm well into my 30s. That's a whole other side to this subject....

Yes, there are exceptions, there are many parts of the country where the 'national average' wage will be enough to get something but we can't all live in those places be it because we need to be near family or because the industry we work in simply doesn't exist in those parts of the world.
 

They wanted to start at full pay immediately yet most have never had a job in their life.


I fully support apprenticeships, I think for many jobs it's by far the best start to the career path. However, the statutory pay rate is abysmal - £3.90 p/h, what's that £8-8.5k a year? That's a real challenge if you don't have a full support network behind you. If your guys are paid more then good on you, as long as you're replacing the retirement rate for the field you're in then the high attrition rate is probably no bad thing!

 

Wow, talk about 'thread drift'!

Sorry, I'll take some of the blame for that!
 


Edited by Icey, 22 June 2019 - 10:56 PM.


#48 M J W J

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 11:07 PM

Icey. You've pretty much described my life from age 21-25 yet I managed to scrape together the deposit for my house.

I would say that the figure you are using for the deposit is a little high though. Typically 10% of the properties value will get you a mortgage as a first time buyer. If you do your research you can make use of schemes to help you boost your deposit. I did look into it but for various reasons wasn't able to at the time of buying my house.

#49 Icey

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 11:38 PM

Those figures were based on a national banks calculator for first time buyers but that does mean it takes into account the tougher requirements implemented a few years ago. Help-to-buy programmes would reduce that a bit.

However, that situation is exactly the one I faced in my 20s but with a lower income and higher outgoings (and that’s not because of a Netflix subscription). I’m not posting completely hypothetical points, there’s some of my personal experiences buried in their too. If I posted the housing values of the street I grew up in the numbers would be off the charts (hence why none of my childhood friends live in the area anymore) so I’m somewhat lucky I’m in a cheaper part of the South West now.

#50 Broomer

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:00 AM

Plot twist, get Netflix, bin off TV license and save money!

#51 mini13

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:29 AM

Total thread derailment, but some good stuff here!

Another thing to chuck in, is these days it's pretty much essentially to have two well paid people to get a mortgage on a decent sized starter home, this really has changed as nit that long ago the woman would be expected to stay at home etc. With equality coming in this has driven up mortgages and screwed over the singletons some what.

#52 kit352

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:58 AM

I dont even want to think about being single and trying to get a home.

My wife and i are DINKS(duel income no kids) so we have it pretty easy. Its just us to worry about and we combine everything to maximize our buying power.

#53 Icey

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 11:23 AM

Plot twist, get Netflix, bin off TV license and save money!


I had that in one of the drafts of the posts above. It’s the equivalent of our US friends ‘cable cutting’. That cheapest Netflix sub is half the price of a TV license so actually, it’s the financially responsible option!

#54 kit352

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 12:29 PM

Which brings this back around to the original tv license problems. Having netflix means having internet which means having a way to view the bbc which means you need a tv license. My going to court over this has opened my eyes to how badly the laws are written and how far they will bend those rules to make you guilty. Eliminating the no fee perk for OAP shows how low they will go to get your money.

#55 Broomer

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 01:34 PM

Don't you accept a disclaimer when you access iPlayer ? Therefore if your IP flags viewing without a license you are asking for a fine ?

Like cooper man said, something along the lines off my car can do 40mph in a 30mph zone, that doesn't make you automatically guilty.

#56 Broomer

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 01:36 PM

Which brings this back around to the original tv license problems. Having netflix means having internet which means having a way to view the bbc which means you need a tv license. My going to court over this has opened my eyes to how badly the laws are written and how far they will bend those rules to make you guilty. Eliminating the no fee perk for OAP shows how low they will go to get your money.


Surely someone with a little bit of legal knowledge could have resolved that situation?

#57 Cooperman

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 09:23 PM

How can having an internet connection mean that you need a TV licence? You need an internet connection for a variety of applications such as email, on-line banking, on-line shopping, etc.. You only need a TV licence if you WATCH TV on your computer. The requirement for proof lies with the BBC or whoever polices this. Without PROOF, not just assumptions, any prosecution must, by definition, fail. 

 

I have a car which will do 148 mph. I would not expect to receive a summons for speeding based on no evidence except the capability of my car to go at that speed. What court would find a guilty verdict as each and everyone of us has a car that can break any UK speed limit if the driver feels like it, and most do break speed limits all the time. Thus I would not expect a summons because I could watch TV if I wished, although I deny doing so. The old well-tried adage of 'PROVE IT' applies, unless when the licence goons knock on your door you can be seen to be watching or admit having watched TV. Any good lawyer would simply 'blow them out of the water'. The case would fail at the point of disclosure and no CPS official would then proceed.



#58 kit352

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:43 AM

The prove it adage doesn't work for this sadly.  The whole license is based on you being able to watch the BBC at home.  How many people here have a tv and pay the license fee yet have never watched the BBC?  lots i am guessing.  The law is for your "ability" to watch the BBC.  The courts didnt care that i never watched it or was never going to, they only cared about my ability to watch it if wanted to.  Having internet was enough to convince them that i could watch the BBC anytime i wanted and technically they weren't wrong.  They know what they are doing when they bring you in.  Pay a lawyer or take your chances with a fine thats most certainly cheaper than the lawyer.

 

Reading the law is one thing, its entirely different in court.  

 

If they could find a way to fine you for future speeding they would.  Your car insurance is based on predictions you will go faster if you have in the past so thats a sort of tax.



#59 Ethel

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:27 AM

 

The phrase look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves is very true.


As I pointed out earlier in this thread - that's just not true when it comes to housing for many people. When the prices are rising faster than you can possibly save, i.e. at a multiple of wage rises, no matter how hard you save you will always be priced out.

Let's put some more numbers to this, only ball-parks mind so there's scope for adjustments if you have more accurate examples to hand.

Here's a house in my road.
 

NXvS0FY.png


Let's say I start saving in 2003 and I'm earning £30k a year (above the national average and certainly more than I was earning at the time). I would need a deposit of around £30k (based on today's standards). So that's my target.

A salary of £30k gives me ~£2k a month after tax. You're likely going to be spending roughly 50% of that on food, bills and rent so lets assume a maximum monthly saving of ~£1000 (assuming no student debt and no pension contributions). In reality that's likely to drop to around £800-900 when you take in all the weird things that happen (cars exploding, electrical goods giving out etc..) for simplicity lets just set that to £850.

So it'll take me about 3 years to save a £30k deposit. Dead easy, right? 3 years scrimping and saving, no problem at all.

Big problem. In those three years the house price has gone up £22k. So now (again, according to today's standards) I need a £50k deposit. That adds another 2 years before my deposit is large enough.

Guess what's happened in those two years? Yeah, you know how this ends. This hypothetical me would get there in the end, I expect it would take ~9-10 years to catch up assuming a linear price rise and that I've managed to continually save £850 a month, i.e. in that ~10 years I've not lost my job, my car hasn't needed replacing/major works, my landlord hasn't hiked the rents/kicked me out, I haven't had a child etc..etc..

 

Now add on a student loan and pension contributions. That knocks £200 off your take-home pay, again, pretty obvious what effect that's going to have. In fact adding student loans adds another dimension to this as it means I won't start this process until I'm ~24. That means, even in this perfect scenario, I won't be in what would have previously been considered a 'stable' position until I'm well into my 30s. That's a whole other side to this subject....

Yes, there are exceptions, there are many parts of the country where the 'national average' wage will be enough to get something but we can't all live in those places be it because we need to be near family or because the industry we work in simply doesn't exist in those parts of the world.
 

They wanted to start at full pay immediately yet most have never had a job in their life.


I fully support apprenticeships, I think for many jobs it's by far the best start to the career path. However, the statutory pay rate is abysmal - £3.90 p/h, what's that £8-8.5k a year? That's a real challenge if you don't have a full support network behind you. If your guys are paid more then good on you, as long as you're replacing the retirement rate for the field you're in then the high attrition rate is probably no bad thing!

 

Wow, talk about 'thread drift'!

Sorry, I'll take some of the blame for that!
 

 

 

It always makes me smile that, as a classic car forum, we always seem to have better balanced discussions of this sort than you find elsewhere online.

 

You can defer some pension contributions, I'm not suggesting you should automatically, but it is something you could chuck in to your financial modelling. Sad that we've made things so complicated that every Millennial must need spreadsheet to get through life.



#60 rich_959

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:56 AM

Same as Cooperman's grandson, I also took an apprenticeship route, along with a couple of friends the same age. Many of us who went to school together have stayed in touch. What I will say, is now that we're all 39/40, those of us who did the apprenticeships are in significantly better financial shape than most of our friends who went to university. I think all the routes to success are tough, and it depends on a lot of hard work and a bit of good luck. I do think you have to be willing to stretch yourself financially to get that first house, and sacrifice other luxuries - and many just aren't willing to do that. But it reaps rewards further down the line. 

 

For my sins, I'm a school governor at our local primary school and I keep banging the drum that 'life skills' such as household financial management and a basic level of cooking should feature higher on the curriculum - probably more for high school. My 7 year old isn't quite ready for her household bills spreadsheet yet, but she will be!! 


Edited by rich_959, 24 June 2019 - 08:57 AM.





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