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Compressor/spray Gun Set Up.


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#1 Stu1961

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 02:46 PM

Looking for a small spray gun/compressor set up, predominantly it will be used for painting areas with epoxy primer that have been repaired/replaced. My only issue is space is at a premium, so size is important for that reason only. I have had a quick look at what is available in the 25 and 50 litres range obviously the larger tank will mean less running time so not upsetting the neighbours as much but bear in mind it will not be used for covering large areas and prolonged sessions.

Regarding the spray gun what would be the best size needle/nozzle combination for my purpose (epoxy primer) or is there an all round gun that would fit the bill, not looking to be a cheapskate especially with the gun I have looked at Devilbis range and will probably go for one from lower end of that range. Any advice would be most welcome and appreciated,

Cheers.    

Stuart



#2 wassupcrew

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 06:24 PM

https://www.ebay.co....nAAAOSwjBVbyFRf

 

I have one of these. Best of both worlds with the two needle sizes. 1.8 for primer and 1.3 to topcoats. low volume low pressure helps with keeping the compressor not running as much, and there is hardly and overspray which helps



#3 bluedragon

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 06:30 PM

If you are exclusively going to spray primers, then I would choose a gun with 1.6-1.8mm or larger needle and cap. You can spray epoxies and heavy sandable primer/surfacers.

 

If it's more like 50/50 topcoats and epoxy primer, the usual 1.3mm needle/cap should do. While technically the epoxy primer should have a larger needle, I have sprayed it regularly with a 1.3mm needle/cap with no issues.

 

But I would not try to spray heavy primer/surfacer with this. Not only might there be spray problems, I don't want the heavy filler compounds in primer/surfacer to gum up the air passages in a final finish/topcoat oriented gun.

 

A 1.8mm needle will probably yield very disappointing results with topcoats and final finish coats. You won't get the atomization for the smoothest finish, especially with a small compressor.

 

As for the compressor itself, try to match the sustained flow rate of the compressor to the gun you've selected. The gun will have a air flow rating. Get as close as you can within your size limits. The closer the rate, the longer you can spray before your tank is depleted.

 

Even though you are OK with spraying small areas at a time, if this ratio is too unfavorable you'll be frustrated by how little you can spray at a time. And some products, you need to get the job done within a certain time frame.

 

If they exist for smaller sizes, a dual stage compressor is vastly preferable. These will deliver more air flow for the size than single-stage units, and can reach potentially higher pressures if you use other air tools. 

 

Problem is that modern HVLP guns demand high volumes of air rather than high pressure (hence - High Volume Low Pressure).

 

 

Dave



#4 Daz1968

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 06:33 PM

I have successfully painted primers, basecoat and clear and direct gloss 2k with a 1.2 devilbiss sri pro, very low air use and superb finish,
The primer was a little rough but was being flatted anyway. I have tried cheap guns and just can’t get on with them, most end up in the bin.

#5 bluedragon

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 07:04 PM

Thinking about it a bit more, if I were in your shoes, I'd settle on the most capable compressor that will fit in your space, then find a gun to match its capacity (or as close as you can.) Just note that HVLP guns can easily use 200-300lpm so a 50 liter tank could be totally drained in as little as 10 seconds.

 

I'd also look into a second gun just for primer, if you plan on doing a lot of topcoat work. It isn't hard to find an inexpensive gun that will give good performance for primer work. You can spend your money on a quality topcoat gun, and pick up a cheap primer-only gun.

 

 

Dave



#6 Stu1961

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:48 AM

Thanks for the replies everyone and all points noted and will most certainly be used to help finalise which way I go, bluedragon will have a look at some kit tomorrow based on your advice. 

 

One thing I should have stated in my original post was that the car will be completely repainted with its later primer and colour coats professionally and not in my garage, my reason for buying the kit was solely to apply an epoxy primer as this seems to be the way most folk go in order to create a non porous layer to protect any bare metal, as far as I can tell spraying is the only means of applying it effectively.

 

The shell is in surprisingly good condition for its age (37 years) apart from the front end which will be completely replaced along with the boot floor and both outer sills which are factory original. Apart from the areas that are replaced/repaired I see no reason to remove the original finish back to bare metal on the rest of the shell as it is in excellent condition.

 

 I will assume the original finish will be cellulose please correct me if I am wrong on this point, so my next question is will the epoxy primer react with the original finish where the two meet?

 

Thanks again.  



#7 bluedragon

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 09:15 AM

Given that, unless you plan to at some point try your hand at topcoating (spot repairs or paint accessory parts) I'd just buy a decent inexpensive gun for primer, with two needles and caps for the 1.3/1.4 and 1.8mm sizes if possible. You might also find such a gun to be perfectly adequate for finish coats too, particularly for small jobs.

 

If the current finish really is cellulose, then it's a hard position to be in. In principle, I would not put a 2K or otherwise modern, chemically hardened enamel finish over cellulose. The epoxy primer, fully cured, should be an excellent sealer to prevent solvent swelling by the cellulose undercoat.

 

But cellulose doesn't have the same durability and flexibility characteristics as modern 2K or even single stage hardened enamel, so there will always be the chance the undercoat layer will expand or flex at a different rate than the topcoats, causing cracking or other damage later. I'd bet that if your painter is a professional, they won't paint over a cellulose finish (even if they're not guaranteeing their work.) The potential for a bad result is too great.

 

On the plus side, if the existing paint is factory applied, it probably is a baked enamel, using a baking oven to harden the enamel instead of a chemical additive as most aftermarket painters use. In that case it's perfectly fine, and an epoxy primer coat is a great sealer as well, just the thing to put over a well sanded factory finish.

 

I'm pretty sure in the mid 80's the transition had been made to at least baked enamel at the factory, though I can't say for sure in the case of Mini. 

 

One side note - after you spray the epoxy, you'll be bringing the car to the painter within the specified recoat time of the epoxy brand you're using? This is necessary to ensure that the topcoats the painter sprays chemically bond to the epoxy layer.

 

On the other hand, if you're just protecting the metal, then I guess the painter will later apply their own primer coats and topcoats. In which case it doesn't matter (they'll sand down your coats to prep for theirs, may even lay down their own epoxy coat.) Might be a good idea to be in sync and use a brand of epoxy they recommend, so their products will be compatible with it.

 

 

 

Dave


Edited by bluedragon, 23 March 2019 - 09:18 AM.


#8 midridge2

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 09:44 AM

2k paint was designed to go over the top of celly. Enamel was used before celly then celly became the industrie norm for many years then 2k was introduced as it did not react with celly, celly can be used over 2k if its been on for a couple of years.

#9 Stu1961

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for the info Dave, I had an idea there could be issues with the original paint being top coated by a modern equivalent. Just been out in the garage to try something as you say the finish may or may not be cellulose so I soaked a rag in cellulose thinners and rubbed it on the existing finish and it removed the paint so from that would I be correct in assuming the finish would be an enamel? Again put me right if I am wrong but I would imagine a fully cured cellulose finish (37 years) would be impervious to its own thinner and would require a paint striper or mechanical means to remove it.

 

Luckily I have decided where the shell will be painted (CARS of Kidderminster, who have an excellent reputation locally) so I will have to confer with them about which way they would wish me to go prior to them having the shell.

 

Bit of a learning curve understanding all of this as with any question 'Mini' any answer invariably throws up more questions. Thanks for the input midridge all this info is giving me a better understanding of things , so are we saying cellulose can be overcoated with 2K safely and if not it can be as long as there is a compatible barrier coat there?

 

Dave would this gun fit the bill it doesn't come with both needle assembly's though I would imagine they are interchangeable with that body so it would just be a case of buying the 1.3mm assembly separately    https://www.spraygun...h.xRdMqwkJ.dpbs  Have found a twin cylinder (50L), not sure if it is two stages though that outputs 11.5cfm the gun in the link requires 8.8cfm.  

 

PS, just been out and had another rub with the cellulose thinner and it would appear my earlier conclusion was or could be wrong all the thinner does is remove any paint oxidation after that thinner has no effect, is there a definitive way of telling whether it is enamel or cellulose based paint?   


Edited by Stu1961, 23 March 2019 - 10:51 AM.


#10 midridge2

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 11:17 AM

Its not enamel, cars have been painted with celly from the late 50 onwards untill 2k took over in the late 70s, celly thinner when rubbed over celly will soften the paint and depending how hard you rub will remove some of it, enamel thinners will only remove enamel paint. If the car is 37 years old it will be 2k paint, rub it with 2k thinners and it will soften it. No you do not need a barrier coat even if it had been celly.

#11 bluedragon

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 07:18 AM

The very purpose of a sealer is to seal unlike types of layers from one another. I'm willing to bet that any factory directions for their paint product line will tell you to apply sealer when painting enamel over cellulose/lacquer, and vice versa. Epoxy happens to be an excellent sealer.

 

Now let me describe the terms I'm using, so that I'm not using a term that means something else to another person. Highly simplified and not indicative of varying chemistries:

 

Cellulose/lacquer paints - paints that dry and harden solely through solvent evaporation. The base solvent dries and leaves the solid color layer behind. There is no chemical hardening or linking. That's why, if you re-wet it with its base solvent, you can eventually soften it and wipe layers of it off.

 

Enamel paints - paints that, after evaporation of their reducer carrier, undergo chemical reaction to fully harden. The paint molecules chemically link to each other, and become impossible to dissolve with the original reducer. (not to say some other powerful solvent can't break it down, but the original reducers cannot.) That's why the products used to thin enamels are typically called reducers, not solvents.

 

However, using natural means for chemical drying means the paint takes a long, long time to dry (harden.) Unaccelerated enamel can take months to dry, which is why in the old days they told us not to polish our enamel finishes for six months after painting.

 

To speed this up, you can use 1) heat, which is what the factory uses with their huge baking ovens or 2) an accelerator additive that catalyzes the hardening process and speeds it up greatly. 2K paints of this nature, and the most durable finishes use dangerous isocyanate accelerators in varying intensities.

 

If a 2K paint can be softened or rubbed down by a 2K thinner, then the paint job was botched. After 2K paint fully links chemically, it cannot be dissolved again by its own reducers or thinners. Similar to how, after you pour a water and concrete mix into a block and let it dry, you cannot dissolve the block back into concrete powder by immersing it.

 

The only thing that should come off is a chalky-flat layer on the surface from aging and abuse (lack of care and protection.) If common solvents could do more than stain a healthy 2K paint layer, then we would all have to repaint our gas filler panels every couple years.

 

Though again I don't have documentation at hand, I'm certain that few if any factories, much less BMC or British Leyland, use/used 2K paint. That's because they all have large baking booths to speed the hardening action on the paints of their cars. Accelerated paints are mainly used by aftermarket refinishers that cannot bake a car at 200°C for 30 minutes, and makers of large vehicles like transport trucks and airplanes that are too large to practically build baking booths for.

 

by the way the heating lamps you see in aftermarket paint shops in no way compare to factory baking booths. They help evaporate reducers quickly to minimize the chance of paint runs or sag, and can use infra-red effects to speed the hardening process, but are not comparable. (like a tanning lamp vs. a cooking oven.)

 

 

Dave


Edited by bluedragon, 24 March 2019 - 07:24 AM.


#12 bluedragon

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 07:48 AM

Thanks for the info Dave, I had an idea there could be issues with the original paint being top coated by a modern equivalent. Just been out in the garage to try something as you say the finish may or may not be cellulose so I soaked a rag in cellulose thinners and rubbed it on the existing finish and it removed the paint so from that would I be correct in assuming the finish would be an enamel? Again put me right if I am wrong but I would imagine a fully cured cellulose finish (37 years) would be impervious to its own thinner and would require a paint striper or mechanical means to remove it.

Luckily I have decided where the shell will be painted (CARS of Kidderminster, who have an excellent reputation locally) so I will have to confer with them about which way they would wish me to go prior to them having the shell.

Bit of a learning curve understanding all of this as with any question 'Mini' any answer invariably throws up more questions. Thanks for the input midridge all this info is giving me a better understanding of things , so are we saying cellulose can be overcoated with 2K safely and if not it can be as long as there is a compatible barrier coat there?

Dave would this gun fit the bill it doesn't come with both needle assembly's though I would imagine they are interchangeable with that body so it would just be a case of buying the 1.3mm assembly separately https://www.spraygun...h.xRdMqwkJ.dpbs Have found a twin cylinder (50L), not sure if it is two stages though that outputs 11.5cfm the gun in the link requires 8.8cfm.

PS, just been out and had another rub with the cellulose thinner and it would appear my earlier conclusion was or could be wrong all the thinner does is remove any paint oxidation after that thinner has no effect, is there a definitive way of telling whether it is enamel or cellulose based paint?


Yes, celluose can be topcoated safely if sealed. As I mentioned, I would avoid it because cellulose flexes at a different rate than enamels (be they 2K, urethane, polyurethane, or simple acrylic.) But the sealer will prevent any incompatible solvents from reaching the cellulose layer.

I have some DeVilbiss Starting Line guns (but not that model) and they are certainly more than capable of shooting primer and do a solid job with topcoats. If I were myself to take a leap without first-hand testimony for that particular model, I would go ahead. DeVilbiss is a long time manufacturer of repute.

In truth, here's where the expensive guns justify their cost.

1) Atomization for spraying fine metallics consistently (like pearls and custom type finishes - I've used a DeVilbiss and even a cheap China no-name gun to spray silver OEM paint on a Subaru panel,and to paint silver wheels. Wheels are a good way to start learning painting by the way!)
2) Durability - to be able to paint gallons and gallons of paint before needing servicing.
3) When the gun does need parts, you can buy them. Most cheap guns don't have much if any spare parts support. But if you only spray a gallon or two in your lifetime (which is primer and paint for at least 1-2 Minis) then the durability of a high-quality gun might be an unused asset.

Some of the high-end guns are reputed to spray much smoother coats than lesser guns, but the skill and experience of the painter is a much greater factor than the gun itself. I don't think any gun will magically let any novice spray a glass-smooth finish without some practice, IMHO.

If the compressor specs are on the level (it's not uncommon to exaggerate a bit on specs) then it will be enough. The small tank means it will run constantly, but it should be able to keep up with spraying. Just determine what the pressure level the CFM rating is. If it's something like 11.5cfm @40psi or higher, all is well. If it's something like 11.5 cfm@5 psi run for the hills, that's a trick number to fool buyers. If the pressure at that airflow volume isn't given, ask before buying!

I would think that if you can't keep scrubbing off paint color with the cellulose thinner, then probably it is an enamel finish. What you see could be just a decayed, oxidized surface layer being wiped clean. (Cellulose thinner being one of the stronger solvents around for paints.)


Dave

Edited by bluedragon, 24 March 2019 - 07:53 AM.


#13 Stu1961

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 01:17 PM

 

Thanks for the info Dave, I had an idea there could be issues with the original paint being top coated by a modern equivalent. Just been out in the garage to try something as you say the finish may or may not be cellulose so I soaked a rag in cellulose thinners and rubbed it on the existing finish and it removed the paint so from that would I be correct in assuming the finish would be an enamel? Again put me right if I am wrong but I would imagine a fully cured cellulose finish (37 years) would be impervious to its own thinner and would require a paint striper or mechanical means to remove it.

Luckily I have decided where the shell will be painted (CARS of Kidderminster, who have an excellent reputation locally) so I will have to confer with them about which way they would wish me to go prior to them having the shell.

Bit of a learning curve understanding all of this as with any question 'Mini' any answer invariably throws up more questions. Thanks for the input midridge all this info is giving me a better understanding of things , so are we saying cellulose can be overcoated with 2K safely and if not it can be as long as there is a compatible barrier coat there?

Dave would this gun fit the bill it doesn't come with both needle assembly's though I would imagine they are interchangeable with that body so it would just be a case of buying the 1.3mm assembly separately https://www.spraygun...h.xRdMqwkJ.dpbs Have found a twin cylinder (50L), not sure if it is two stages though that outputs 11.5cfm the gun in the link requires 8.8cfm.

PS, just been out and had another rub with the cellulose thinner and it would appear my earlier conclusion was or could be wrong all the thinner does is remove any paint oxidation after that thinner has no effect, is there a definitive way of telling whether it is enamel or cellulose based paint?


Yes, celluose can be topcoated safely if sealed. As I mentioned, I would avoid it because cellulose flexes at a different rate than enamels (be they 2K, urethane, polyurethane, or simple acrylic.) But the sealer will prevent any incompatible solvents from reaching the cellulose layer.

I have some DeVilbiss Starting Line guns (but not that model) and they are certainly more than capable of shooting primer and do a solid job with topcoats. If I were myself to take a leap without first-hand testimony for that particular model, I would go ahead. DeVilbiss is a long time manufacturer of repute.

In truth, here's where the expensive guns justify their cost.

1) Atomization for spraying fine metallics consistently (like pearls and custom type finishes - I've used a DeVilbiss and even a cheap China no-name gun to spray silver OEM paint on a Subaru panel,and to paint silver wheels. Wheels are a good way to start learning painting by the way!)
2) Durability - to be able to paint gallons and gallons of paint before needing servicing.
3) When the gun does need parts, you can buy them. Most cheap guns don't have much if any spare parts support. But if you only spray a gallon or two in your lifetime (which is primer and paint for at least 1-2 Minis) then the durability of a high-quality gun might be an unused asset.

Some of the high-end guns are reputed to spray much smoother coats than lesser guns, but the skill and experience of the painter is a much greater factor than the gun itself. I don't think any gun will magically let any novice spray a glass-smooth finish without some practice, IMHO.

If the compressor specs are on the level (it's not uncommon to exaggerate a bit on specs) then it will be enough. The small tank means it will run constantly, but it should be able to keep up with spraying. Just determine what the pressure level the CFM rating is. If it's something like 11.5cfm @40psi or higher, all is well. If it's something like 11.5 cfm@5 psi run for the hills, that's a trick number to fool buyers. If the pressure at that airflow volume isn't given, ask before buying!

I would think that if you can't keep scrubbing off paint color with the cellulose thinner, then probably it is an enamel finish. What you see could be just a decayed, oxidized surface layer being wiped clean. (Cellulose thinner being one of the stronger solvents around for paints.)


Dave

 

 

The cellulose thinner will not touch the paint or its underlying primer once as you say the dirt and oxidation has been cleaned off, what it has left behind is a beautiful shiny finish which has been hidden for many years, so it looks like I have an enamel finish.

My reason exactly for going with the Devilbis, quality brand plus spare parts availability, including the option of being able to get the smaller needle/nozzle combination for it, although I will never be able to completely paint a shell which would be next to impossible with the space available to me I like the idea of being able to do smaller projects in the future.

  I do have some spray painting experience from another hobby using high end Iwata airbrushes which I know is not on the scale as painting a bodyshell, but it all helps totally different types of paint as well hence most of my questions.

What I will do is go along to the company I want to paint the shell and confirm with them what approach they would prefer me to take, might even take them a small sample of the cured paint just to see if they can identify it. There is also on F/B a page for ex Austin apprentices the admin seems think I would get a response to my question so have posted on there as well.

Dave cannot thank you enough for going to the lengths you have in explaining to me pros and cons of what I am trying to achieve, it is much appreciated.

PS – here’s the compressor  https://www.spraygun...h.fnR6TZPG.dpbs they do a single cylinder version of this as well but its only capable of 6.8cfm

 

Stuart



#14 bluedragon

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 06:48 PM

 

PS – here’s the compressor  https://www.spraygun...h.fnR6TZPG.dpbs they do a single cylinder version of this as well but its only capable of 6.8cfm

 

Stuart

 

 

Stuart,

 

on the link you provided, click on "Tech Data." This shows the operating manual for this compressor. In the specs, you'll see "Maximum Free Air Delivery" which is 8.8cfm. Still no pressure given. It just matches your gun, but in practice would probably be a bit undersized. This compressor looks quite small for that much air delivery. I'm guessing it isn't a two-stage unit because each cylinder appears to have its own air intake and filter - if it were two stage, there would only be one air intake and the 2nd cylinder would get its air feed from the 1st.

 

The manual notes "This refers to free air delivered by the compressor (‘air out’) which varies according to the pressure setting. Do not confuse this with the compressor displacement which is the air taken in by the compressor (‘air in’). ‘Air out’ is always less than ‘air in’ - due to losses within the compressor."

 

Without a pressure given for the max air flow, we still can't tell if it's up to the job. A HVLP gun fortunately doesn't run at very high pressure (~7psi) so hopefully this compressor would be enough. You need to talk to the maker or vendor to be sure.

 

 

Dave



#15 Stu1961

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:49 PM

Cheers Dave, slowly getting my head around it will be making a few calls in the next few days.






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