40 replies to this topic

[alex-95]

 

 

 

I haven't had to time check anything properly yet, but after driving the car a bit more it now crunches into 2nd gear when dropping down from 3rd. Could this be linked to the popping out of 4th gear? Being new baulk rings I wouldn't have thought it would be them but the rubbish quality of parts means it could be a possibility. 

 

Is it Time to pull the engine back out again?

 

Does it do this every time or only when cold ?

 

Every time unfortunately, Got the engine out this evening and should have it apart tomorrow evening. I've read it could be clutch drag? maybe the clutch plate not sliding on the primary gear or the primary gear seized on.

 

 

OK, that does sound like a Synchro issue here.

 

If it was clutch drag, you'd notice it in every gear up and down and big time in when selecting reverse.

 

Ah right, Was fine in reverse.

 

Theres probably a write up already but what do I need to check on the synchros to see if they are scrap? The only reason I fitted them was because the gearbox had been checked by a gearbox expert already but when I drove it it would crunch in 4th gear due to a snapped baulk ring.

 

I've stripped it tonight but haven't had a proper look at it yet. One problem I did find was the main double roller bearing. I knocked the shaft back so I could get the proper tool to remove the bearing but rather than the shaft moving on the bearing the bearing split apart. I didn't using any great force just light taps to push it through. It looks like it's broken to me and can't be put back together?

 

[Spider]

Ah bummer, but not the end of the world.

 

You'll need to get that Ring off the shaft. Both sides on the Inner Rings with their Balls and Cages will go back in easy enough from each side and there's a small pressed steel C Clip that holds the two Inner Rings together.

 

 

The Mainshafts from the beginning of production up until the thread was changed for the Pinion Nut, had a Diameter of exactly 1.000" and the these Bearings were a very neat 'slide fit' on the Shaft, so assembly and more importantly, disassembly, was easy. When they changed the Thread on the Shaft, the increased the Diameter of the Bearing Mount by 1/2 a thou and now they are a press fit on the shaft. Ordinarily for general shafting, this is desirable, however, given here that we have the Pinion and the Nut - that's done up quite tight - I don't see a need as the Bearing is held firm on the Shaft. What's more, out of the many Gearbox's I've torn town and rebuilt, some that have serious power going through them, with sticky tyres etc, I'm yet to see an issue from having this Bearing a 'slide fit'.

 

As a matter of routine with these new type Shafts, when I use them, I reduce the Bearing Mount diameter of them to make the Bearing a slide fit. Ideally, having them ground would be the correct way to do this, but I just do them in the Lathe with a Diamond Lap, it only takes seconds to do.

[alex-95]

Ah bummer, but not the end of the world.

 

You'll need to get that Ring off the shaft. Both sides on the Inner Rings with their Balls and Cages will go back in easy enough from each side and there's a small pressed steel C Clip that holds the two Inner Rings together.

 

 

The Mainshafts from the beginning of production up until the thread was changed for the Pinion Nut, had a Diameter of exactly 1.000" and the these Bearings were a very neat 'slide fit' on the Shaft, so assembly and more importantly, disassembly, was easy. When they changed the Thread on the Shaft, the increased the Diameter of the Bearing Mount by 1/2 a thou and now they are a press fit on the shaft. Ordinarily for general shafting, this is desirable, however, given here that we have the Pinion and the Nut - that's done up quite tight - I don't see a need as the Bearing is held firm on the Shaft. What's more, out of the many Gearbox's I've torn town and rebuilt, some that have serious power going through them, with sticky tyres etc, I'm yet to see an issue from having this Bearing a 'slide fit'.

 

As a matter of routine with these new type Shafts, when I use them, I reduce the Bearing Mount diameter of them to make the Bearing a slide fit. Ideally, having them ground would be the correct way to do this, but I just do them in the Lathe with a Diamond Lap, it only takes seconds to do.

 

Cheers.

I've got the rest of the bearing out just by holding 1st gear and lightly tapping the shaft. The clip that holds it in has snapped off somehow.

 

 

 

here's the baulk rings, there is pretty much no gap between and i'm pretty sure there was before I put it together and I tested them on all the gears. Is this a baulking issue or the gears that's caused this?

[Spider]

Bummer on the C Clip breaking, however, if you're careful, you'll still be able to use the Bearing without issue, only assembling and dis-assembling will likely require the use of 3 hands and lots of colourful words. Or if you have an old bearing, pinch the clip from that.

 

Gee,,,,,,, the Baulk Rings for 1st and 2nd sit really low. That for 3rd looks OK.

 

Use that from 3rd Gear to test the Cones on 1st and 2nd Gears so you can gauge an idea what's worn here. It will most likely be the Baulk Ring that's out of spec, but while your here, for the seconds it will take to check - test !

 

If these were all new Baulk Rings, then I'd suggest replacing them from another supplier. A little while since I've needed to buy any but the last lot I got from Mini Spares were fine, but sat a few thousands too high, so you need to check that and if needed, grind the small side down a little.

 

Also, to ask the question here, did you replace the Springs in the Syncho Hubs and check the Hubs for excess play ?

 

I'd also suggest you measure the Gearbox Case from Mainshaft Bearing Register to that for the 1st Motion Shaft. Given the history of this Gearbox (as I think I remember it!) I strongly suspect these are too close together. Anything less than 7.400" is asking for trouble. I make a shim to fit over the Mainshaft Bearing and pack out the Register that the C Clip seat upon to correct these.

[alex-95]

Bummer on the C Clip breaking, however, if you're careful, you'll still be able to use the Bearing without issue, only assembling and dis-assembling will likely require the use of 3 hands and lots of colourful words. Or if you have an old bearing, pinch the clip from that.

 

Gee,,,,,,, the Baulk Rings for 1st and 2nd sit really low. That for 3rd looks OK.

 

Use that from 3rd Gear to test the Cones on 1st and 2nd Gears so you can gauge an idea what's worn here. It will most likely be the Baulk Ring that's out of spec, but while your here, for the seconds it will take to check - test !

 

If these were all new Baulk Rings, then I'd suggest replacing them from another supplier. A little while since I've needed to buy any but the last lot I got from Mini Spares were fine, but sat a few thousands too high, so you need to check that and if needed, grind the small side down a little.

 

Also, to ask the question here, did you replace the Springs in the Syncho Hubs and check the Hubs for excess play ?

 

I'd also suggest you measure the Gearbox Case from Mainshaft Bearing Register to that for the 1st Motion Shaft. Given the history of this Gearbox (as I think I remember it!) I strongly suspect these are too close together. Anything less than 7.400" is asking for trouble. I make a shim to fit over the Mainshaft Bearing and pack out the Register that the C Clip seat upon to correct these.

Yeah , I'll order another just in case as it's a bank holiday weekend so won't be able to get bits in the post on friday to monday if I don't order before 12.00 today.

 

Just gone and checked the 3rd gear baulk ring and that one is fine on 1st and 2nd, pretty much the same gap on all 3. I remember measuring them and I think they were on the top limit, What did you use to grind it? surface grinder?

 

I replaced the springs (and balls I think), I didn't check the hubs for play. what's the method of checking this? 

 

I'll have a go at that tonight, what do you mean by mainshaft bearing register and 1st motion shaft?

 

Thanks for your help

[Spider]

Yeah, just a surface grinder on the Baulk Rings.

 

I'll have to look for some photos for the other stuff.

[alex-95]

I finally got my baulk rings today and this is what I got below. The first photo of the new from south Lakeland mini centre (Left) compared to the minispares(right), The heat treatment is a lot smaller area than the mini spares one, does this matter? The other photos are of the grooves, I've put some pen on the top to highlight the widths of the grooves, I thought they should be pointier than this? I don't won't to fit them and then the gearbox crunches again after a few miles. Then I measured the gaps between the gear and baulk ring, they measure over 0.040" one measures 0.060"+ on one of the gears but then I think the minispares ones were above 0.040" also. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at this thread and quote below, what is the moly surface? Are mine still fine?

 

http://www.theminifo...ngs-worn-gears/

 

 

 though, sometimes, the Molly Coating on the gear just flakes away, though, given here, it's happened on 2 gears in the same box, and that the baulk rings aren't too worn I'd say these were the cause.

 

[KTS]

i think the heat marks you see are a result of the lugs being friction welded to the rings - looks like there's a lot more heat been transferred into the minispares baulk rings during that process compared to the others

 

don't know enough about the material the baulk rings are made of to know whether they're sensitive to being heated this way

[Spider]

The Molly Coating is the black stuff that's applied at manufacture on the Cones of the Gears. From what I've seen of yours here, they are OK.

 

However,,,, the baulk rings are none too impressive at all. The grooves need to be wider than what you're left with there or they just won't clear the oil out of the way quick enough. The one with 0.040" back clearance is on the upper limit and that at 0.060" will cause drag unless other adjustments are made, which really shouldn't be necessary.

 

The 'ears' on the are heat treated for some extra hardening of the the ears themselves and ideally you don't want this extending in to the grooved part of the Baulk ring at all, but the reality of this is that it always will to some extent. It's the 'pointy end / side' of the baulk rings that need the hardness on the surface as they do get bashed about a bit from the outer track of the hub as it slides over and aligns them.

[alex-95]

The Molly Coating is the black stuff that's applied at manufacture on the Cones of the Gears. From what I've seen of yours here, they are OK.

 

However,,,, the baulk rings are none too impressive at all. The grooves need to be wider than what you're left with there or they just won't clear the oil out of the way quick enough. The one with 0.040" back clearance is on the upper limit and that at 0.060" will cause drag unless other adjustments are made, which really shouldn't be necessary.

 

The 'ears' on the are heat treated for some extra hardening of the the ears themselves and ideally you don't want this extending in to the grooved part of the Baulk ring at all, but the reality of this is that it always will to some extent. It's the 'pointy end / side' of the baulk rings that need the hardness on the surface as they do get bashed about a bit from the outer track of the hub as it slides over and aligns them.

Cheers Chris, I thought it was that, it's not all black but the majority is.

 

I'll send them back then and buy some more from another company. I have better originals than these new ones I've bought.

 

Ah ok, so that's one good thing about them  . I've got a baulkring from an old gearbox that I stripped and has worn the point away and the rest of the taper!

[Rorf]

It doesn't pay to purchase the cheaper version of the bulk rings from from Min Spares etc. As they say quality never comes cheap and these parts certainly do a lot of hard work.

[alex-95]

It doesn't pay to purchase the cheaper version of the bulk rings from from Min Spares etc. As they say quality never comes cheap and these parts certainly do a lot of hard work.

You can't trust anything you buy anymore, the ones above from south Lakeland minis were sold as genuine baulk rings so thought they would be good quality. I've paid out for 'Quality' parts over the years and have turned out to be crap, a set of rockers for instance that came full of swarf and burrs and a head that when the studs were fitted the rockers wouldn't fit due to the not holes being heli-coiled square to the head.

[Rorf]

My sentiments too - there certainly is a lot of rubbish out there, even sold by so called reputable suppliers.

[Shooter63]

I'm not sure if this will help but I have it on good authority that the only baulk rings to use are either the John Guess ones, minispares evo ones or if you can find either NOS or good used 3 synchro W ones

Shooter

[hhhh]

What does the "W" mean above? Thanks.