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Subframe Repair


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#61 YJO

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 08:07 AM

The 4 bolts on an mpi could be said to have been designed to trap moisture, if I recall the replacements from minispares are a much better design not having a split thread. Be sure to copperslip when the new ones go in, and powercoat or at least add some additional protection to the new subframe, the mid price ones are made in Tunisia ! Have a coating but it's not great.

#62 Ethel

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:09 AM

 

 

 

 

RIGHT GENTS BEFORE THIS THREAD DESCENDS ANY FURTHER CAN I ASK THAT ANY PERTINENT FACTS ARE ACTUALLY LINKED SO WE CAN SEE.

JUST SAYING ITS EUROPEAN LAW MEANS NOTHING WITHOUT A LINK, ALSO WE WILL KEEP POLITICS OUT OF THIS TECHNICAL THREAD.

I WILL CLOSE THIS THREAD AND ANY OTHER THREADS IN THE TECHNICAL SECTION THAT I SEE THAT MENTIONS ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE TECHNICAL ANSWERS THAT SHOULD BE GIVEN.

KEEP POLITICAL IDEOLOGY ETC ETC OUT OF THIS SECTION, ITS NOT NEEDED OR WARRANTED.

I'll just leave this here :

Warning
Please be careful when answering peoples technical questions that you do not misguide them into taking inappropriate action. Not only is this annoying, but it can also be costly and could even be dangerous if the wrong information is given. This is why we ask that only first-hand and factual information is posted in reply to peoples queries. If you are not 100% certain of your reply, be sure to point out your uncertainty.

Fact: SS is subpar compared to the original spec.
I'll just leave this here.

You quoted "as its forbidden to use on suspension and chassis by European law"

So where is the link to back up your statement?? Also the reason why i posted in this thread as ADMIN was to prevent it from degrading any further.

Now please post the link to the European Law that you says exists with reference to the illegality of using Stainless Steel fasteners in suspension components.

This is why we ask that only first-hand and factual information is posted in reply to peoples queries. If you are not 100% certain of your reply, be sure to point out your uncertainty.

Its Like proving unicorns dont exist. You cant prove there is no type approval by supplying a type approval.
Being a major parts resaler now I'm 100% sure of my statement.

And you dont have to pull the admin card, I'm very much aware of that. Though it saddens me to see that there is a selectivity in what is deemed "an okay bodge"and what's not.

 

 

The problem here with all of this is you specifically said there is a European Law, hence why i asked for that particular law.

 

This is going around in circles now so pretty pointless going on about it.

 

And i specifically pulled the Admin card to try and draw a line under all of this. Its been reported, i have tried to deal with the report.

 

 

Going to make a huge hypocrite of myself as I liked this...

 

Of course Dusky is right that you can't prove a negative, which doubtless was part of the reason for expanding regulations such as type approval. However any of those regulations can only apply if they were current when your Mini rolled off the production line. For something like a seat belt or a fog light it'll have regulations of its own that apply the same (fitting something that wasn't required by the car's regulations voids that exemption) with a CE or kite mark etc to signify compliance.

 

Regulations or no, we are all responsible for keeping our cars in a roadworthy condition. If the worst happens and an accusing finger can be pointed at a part you chose to fit then you could be held liable with your insurer bailing out on you.

 

As it's potentially your own neck (literally, if you're behind the wheel) use your own best judgement. If you're unsure (or want to shoulder off as much blame as possible):

 

Buy parts that are sold for the specific purpose from an established and reputable supplier.

Understand any markings and the standards they represent and again use a supplier you can trust - so CE doesn't turn out to stand for counterfeit effluent. 



#63 Homersimpson

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 04:11 PM

I'm with Sonikk, the comment was it's against European law to use stainless fixings on suspension components.

If this is true then it must be written somewhere? If a car went for type approval and was rejected for stainless suspension bolts what regulation would they use to do this?

I think it's a fair question.

#64 Dusky

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 08:04 AM

I'm with Sonikk, the comment was it's against European law to use stainless fixings on suspension components.

If this is true then it must be written somewhere? If a car went for type approval and was rejected for stainless suspension bolts what regulation would they use to do this?

I think it's a fair question.


Wich has been answered as well.

#65 Homersimpson

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 05:24 PM

I'm with Sonikk, the comment was it's against European law to use stainless fixings on suspension components.

If this is true then it must be written somewhere? If a car went for type approval and was rejected for stainless suspension bolts what regulation would they use to do this?

I think it's a fair question.

Wich has been answered as well.

I've read through the thread again and can't find the answer, can you point me in the direction?

What we need is a document and clause number where it says stainless can't be used for suspension components which is what you claimed I.e. it's against European law therefore it must be written down.

#66 Dusky

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 09:44 PM

I'm with Sonikk, the comment was it's against European law to use stainless fixings on suspension components.

If this is true then it must be written somewhere? If a car went for type approval and was rejected for stainless suspension bolts what regulation would they use to do this?

I think it's a fair question.

Wich has been answered as well.
I've read through the thread again and can't find the answer, can you point me in the direction?

What we need is a document and clause number where it says stainless can't be used for suspension components which is what you claimed I.e. it's against European law therefore it must be written down.

Sigh. There is no type approval for them. Anything that's not CE marked, TUV approved.,.. isnt allowed. Simples I know.
E.g. most American cars you ll see have illegal taillights, headlights and seatbelts.

#67 Cooperman

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:21 PM

You can buy mild steel or high-tensile steel nuts & bolts from normal commercial outlets. They are not TuV or CE marked in any way. Does this mean that we are not allowed to use them for restorations? Of course it doesn't. 

For an aeroplane, components need a 'Type 1 Release Note' or equivalent, but this does not apply to cars, especially classic cars, in the UK. Good quality fixings are permitted, as is changing from hexagon head to socket head screws and bolts.

Is there an EU document which specifies the type, quality and material for suspension and body-work fixings? I have never heard of any restriction on bolts for a 60-year-old designed car.

If one looks at the after-market parts available for older cars, which ones have a TuV or CE number? The stuff sold world-wide by Mini Spares, for example, does not have TuV approvals. Those parts are made largely to OE designs with original or other specification materials. The complete after-market rear sub-frames are not TuV approved, so does that make them illegal? I hardly think the bolt material specification in specific bolts will ever have a TuV or CE marking, they are simply commercially available UNF bolts & nuts. In fact they are referred to as COTS parts (Commercial off the Shelf) in many applications. In fact, one might doubt that any UNF bolts/nuts would have a current approval number.

So long as the bolts used have sufficient shear strength there will be no issues, and 4 off 5/16" stainless steel bolts will have more than ample shear strength to handle a rear sub-frame mounting. 

I just did a quick and rough calculation and 4 off 5/16" UNF stainless steel bolts would have a combined maximum shear strength of almost 4 tons. That should be enough - the car would disintegrate before that shear load would ever be reached.



#68 Homersimpson

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:25 PM

"Sigh. There is no type approval for them. Anything that's not CE marked, TUV approved.,.. isnt allowed. Simples I know.
E.g. most American cars you ll see have illegal taillights, headlights and seatbelts."

 

 

So what you are trying to say is that because the original vehicles type approval was for a car with mild steel bolts that replacing them with stainless contravenes this as they have different stress and shear caracteristics and therefore are not allowed. 

 

What you actually said is that its against European Law to use stainless bolts for suspension components which it appears is untrue if a manufactuer used them, calculated and sized them correctly and have it approved as part of the type approval.   If I was a lesser man I might call you a liar on your original point but i'm not so I wont.

 

The point relating to type approval is interesting but there must be some latitude (which varies country to country) on this otherwise we couldn't do anything to modify our cars, for example different wheels, seats, engines, brakes etc.


Edited by Homersimpson, 23 June 2019 - 10:27 PM.


#69 Ethel

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 10:55 PM

Time out gents.

 

I don't think we're contributing much to the OP's original topic now anyway






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