23 replies to this topic

[Clubby77]

Hi there,

 

I've build my own Engine. And I have been pretty pedantic about it, but nobody is perfect. ;) It was sitting on the bench for a while before i was able to put it in. (3 Months)

 

1330 A+, 12G940 Head, Cooper S Oilpressure relief valve and Spring, uprated Oilpump, Mechanical Oilpressure Gauge, Center Oil Pickup, no Oil cooler connected yet.

 

I started it yesterday for the first time had it running for about 5-10min. It ran like a champ only the fitting in the Block for the mechanical Oilpressure Gauge was leaking.

So i got a new one today fitted it and started the Car... I actually didn't even Check the oilpressure at first because i was busy with keeping it running.

It ran for probably 20-30s before i noticed that the gauge showed no reading. Immediatly Stopped the Car. So i took the spark plugs out again and checked the following things:

 

Things i checked: 

0. Checked Oillevel

1. Oilpressure gauge working, reacts when you blow into it

2. No blockage in the line or the Fitting

3. Took the fitting out, Oilgallery stays dry when you turn it over with the Starter Motor  (only tried for a couple of seconds)

 

If the Oilpump would be working there should be oil in the galleries right? 

 

Any Suggestions what it could be?  And what i can check before i take it out again and what i could try?

To be honest, I am pretty devastated.

 

G Jan

 

 

[Cabby]

I know its stating the obvious, but have you filled the engine with oil.

[Dusky]

How did you run the camshaft in in 10 minutes?
If it has no oil pressure you ll have to strip it anyway. Might check the relief valve not seating but I doubt it.

[nicklouse]

so you dont know if the engine had pressure first start but there was an oil leak at the fitting for the gauge. you had pressure then.

 

pop the oil pressure relieve valve out and clean it and the bore. then before starting dont refit the valve. remove plugs. crank does oil come out of the hole? yes refit valve and spin-over till you have pressure. then fit plugs and run.

 

i never do a first start with the engine to run until i know there is pressure.

[Spider]

,,,,,,,,,,,,, uprated Oilpump,

 

There's a few other things to check first, however, if this is a Metro Turbo Oil Pump, there's a good chance it's blown out the Oil Pump Gasket.

 

A standard pump is all you need unless you have other ancillary items (like a Turbo) that need to be feed with Oil. The Oil Pressure Relief Circuit usually is overcome if a Turbo Pump is fitted and the extra capacity is not needed.

[Rorf]

If it has run without oil pressure it is very likely that the main and big end bearings have taken damage.

 

Surely you must have turned the motor over without spark plugs until you got pressure?

 

Agree with Moke on the uprated oil pump, not sure why everyone believes these pumps and very high oil pressures are needed on mini engines. Were the oil gallery plugs put in correctly?

 

So many questions to answer.

[Clubby77]

so you dont know if the engine had pressure first start but there was an oil leak at the fitting for the gauge. you had pressure then.

 

pop the oil pressure relieve valve out and clean it and the bore. then before starting dont refit the valve. remove plugs. crank does oil come out of the hole? yes refit valve and spin-over till you have pressure. then fit plugs and run.

 

i never do a first start with the engine to run until i know there is pressure.

On the first start it had Oilpressure. Before i started it the first time i took the Plugs out and started for pressure. Once it had pressure i started it. pressure seemed to be regulating itself. 

Stopped the Car when i noticed the cracked fitting for the Oilpressure Gauge. it showed 3,5  Bar (50LB/O") of Oil Pressure @ 1500 rpm and went off the scale when revved. It had pressure when i turned it off.

 

The next day i did not check the oil pressure when starting.

 

Took the valve out this morning, hole was clean. ball moved freely. no oil came from the hole. 

 

 

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,, uprated Oilpump,

 

There's a few other things to check first, however, if this is a Metro Turbo Oil Pump, there's a good chance it's blown out the Oil Pump Gasket.

 

A standard pump is all you need unless you have other ancillary items (like a Turbo) that need to be feed with Oil. The Oil Pressure Relief Circuit usually is overcome if a Turbo Pump is fitted and the extra capacity is not needed.

 

 

I don't think that it is a Turbo Pump i bought it from a local classic mini workshop where i told the guy what i am building. Will be taking it out next week then i will know for sure.

 

 

If it has run without oil pressure it is very likely that the main and big end bearings have taken damage.

 

Surely you must have turned the motor over without spark plugs until you got pressure?

 

Agree with Moke on the uprated oil pump, not sure why everyone believes these pumps and very high oil pressures are needed on mini engines. Were the oil gallery plugs put in correctly?

 

So many questions to answer.

 

I swapped the Gallery plugs for NPT grub screws. But i don't think that i messed that one up because it had Oilpressure when i started it the first time.

 

Will i need to worry about my bearings? should i take the gearbox off even when it is a blown Oil pump gasket?

 

I know that there is not a lot of questions to be answered with the engine in. Thanks for your advice!

 

G Jan

[nicklouse]

seems that you had too much oil pressure using the ball. should have used the standard plunger.

 

but back to the issue you say that the galleries are now not getting any oil then you have blown something.

 

 

if you are lulling the engine out to look at the oil pump gasket I would drop the box off and check the bearings as you will have done the hard part already.

[Rorf]

There is a common problem of the grub screw on the HP oil gallery side going in too far and actually blocking of the oil intake to that gallery. Should have stuck to the normal brass cup plugs.

[Rorf]

Reading above you say the pressure gauge went off the scale when revving the engine which means the pressure release valve didn't do its job so something is blown, oil pump gasket as Moke mentions, could even be a gallery plug popping out or bearings totally worn so large clearances now exist.

 

On a normal mini engine max oil pressure should be 50 to 55psi, just under 4 bar and at idle 15psi or 1 bar when warm.

 

Your best bet is engine out and strip everything before you do damge to the crank journals.

[carbon]

seems that you had too much oil pressure using the ball. should have used the standard plunger.

 

but back to the issue you say that the galleries are now not getting any oil then you have blown something.

 

 

if you are lulling the engine out to look at the oil pump gasket I would drop the box off and check the bearings as you will have done the hard part already.

+1 for oil overpressure problems when using the ball instead of standard plunger.

 

Using a ball instead of correct thimble I was getting over 100psi (7bar) even with a standard oil pump when starting. On cold days it was reading off scale, until one very cold morning when it went almost all way round before dropping to zero...

 

Stripped down and found the oil gallery brass plug at flywheel end had popped out. Replaced the ball with correct thimble and never had this happen since.

[Clubby77]

I will be taking the engine out tomorrow. I will probably put one of those adjustable Oil pressure relief valve caps in, that should fix it forever.

I don't regret getting the Grubscrews and if you take a little bit of care when putting them in, they are great!

You will not need to put new plugs in everytime you have to take it out. (For example this time :))

 

I will be posting pictures.

[Spider]

I will be taking the engine out tomorrow. I will probably put one of those adjustable Oil pressure relief valve caps in, that should fix it forever.

I don't regret getting the Grubscrews and if you take a little bit of care when putting them in, they are great!

You will not need to put new plugs in everytime you have to take it out. (For example this time :))

 

I will be posting pictures.

 

Can I suggest fitting a garden variety standard Oil Pressure Relief Valve. You really don't need to fiddle and adjust the Pressure, just set and more or less, forget. 50 - 65 PSI is plenty and that's what the standard valve will give you, right out of the box Like most things, with Oil Pressure, more is not better.

 

The Grubscrews are great I recon too, I always fit them on every build, however, as Rolf mentioned, there is one in particular that you need to be very careful with. This is the one just down from where the Oil Pressure Relief Valve is fitted, on the front of the Block. If this is fitted too deep (more than about 3/8" - 10 mm), then it blocks off the Vent for the back of the Relief Valve. When this happens, the Relief Valve won't open or won't open much and the Oil Pressure goes sky high. Usually a blown up Oil Filter is the result, if the Oil Pump Gasket doesn't blow out first. While this one does require particular attention, they all deed a high level of attention paid to them when tapping the block and fitting them. Lots can go wrong with them if done haphazardly.

 

 

Also, in your opening post (and the bit which I quoted ^) you made mention of an 'up-rated Oil Pump'. If it's not a Turbo Oil Pump, then can you shed some light on what this is?

[Clubby77]

Update:

I had to wait for my flywheel puller to arrive.

I have dissassembled my engine and checked everything. Luckily no damage was done.

I have ordered a new Oilpump from Minispares which has a different Number printed on it than the old one. The old one was labelled L048 and the new one L118. Both are AP pumps and look absolutly the same, i will put the new one in anyway.

It was the Oilpump gasket that caused the trouble, probably caused by the excessive oil pressure. I got a standard oilpressurevalve now.

 

How do you install a Mini oil pump? the old one i put in with a bit of grease on the gasket, what would you recommend?

I am thinking about dissasembling the camshat drive and rockers so i can prime the engine oil circuit.

 

G Jan

Edited by Clubby77, 04 July 2019 - 11:04 AM.

[whistler]

 

so you dont know if the engine had pressure first start but there was an oil leak at the fitting for the gauge. you had pressure then.

 

pop the oil pressure relieve valve out and clean it and the bore. then before starting dont refit the valve. remove plugs. crank does oil come out of the hole? yes refit valve and spin-over till you have pressure. then fit plugs and run.

 

i never do a first start with the engine to run until i know there is pressure.

On the first start it had Oilpressure. Before i started it the first time i took the Plugs out and started for pressure. Once it had pressure i started it. pressure seemed to be regulating itself. 

Stopped the Car when i noticed the cracked fitting for the Oilpressure Gauge. it showed 3,5  Bar (50LB/O") of Oil Pressure @ 1500 rpm and went off the scale when revved. It had pressure when i turned it off.

 

The next day i did not check the oil pressure when starting.

 

Took the valve out this morning, hole was clean. ball moved freely. no oil came from the hole. 

 

 

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,, uprated Oilpump,

 

There's a few other things to check first, however, if this is a Metro Turbo Oil Pump, there's a good chance it's blown out the Oil Pump Gasket.

 

A standard pump is all you need unless you have other ancillary items (like a Turbo) that need to be feed with Oil. The Oil Pressure Relief Circuit usually is overcome if a Turbo Pump is fitted and the extra capacity is not needed.

 

 

I don't think that it is a Turbo Pump i bought it from a local classic mini workshop where i told the guy what i am building. Will be taking it out next week then i will know for sure.

 

 

If it has run without oil pressure it is very likely that the main and big end bearings have taken damage.

 

Surely you must have turned the motor over without spark plugs until you got pressure?

 

Agree with Moke on the uprated oil pump, not sure why everyone believes these pumps and very high oil pressures are needed on mini engines. Were the oil gallery plugs put in correctly?

 

So many questions to answer.

 

I swapped the Gallery plugs for NPT grub screws. But i don't think that i messed that one up because it had Oilpressure when i started it the first time.

 

Will i need to worry about my bearings? should i take the gearbox off even when it is a blown Oil pump gasket?

 

I know that there is not a lot of questions to be answered with the engine in. Thanks for your advice!

 

G Jan

 

Use the standard oil pressure relief valve and spring the S one allows too much pressure. I did the same on my first build. 100+ pressure. Fit correct one and startup is 75psi.