33 replies to this topic

[M700FGT]

So as some of you may know, i have had a few issues with front bearings on my 97 Cooper.

 

To cut a long story short, two garages have had attempts at fitting bearing and both have failed after less than 100 miles. There is more detail to this story in another thread. http://www.theminifo...aring-problems/

 

The issue i have is my extremely experienced neighbour decided to help me as he knew i was having problems. We replaced one bearing and tightened up the driveshaft nut on the other side. HE DID NOT TORQUE THE DRIVESHAFT NUT - but did it very tight.

 

Ive only driven it around the corner for a quick test, but not don't any real miles yet. I did some more research to find out why i kept having this problem and came across the torque settings.

 

I was going to torque it to the correct 188-199 lbf ft as per the Haynes, but he said that's too tight and advises not to do it.

 

If i do it, i will be going with what the book says, but if i do it and it goes wrong again he is not likely to want to help me again if i don't follow his advise. Without going into too much detail this guy has hand built a show stopping 450hp 60s classic in his garage - so he knows what he is talking about.

 

I just want to drive and enjoy my Mini - I've don't less then 1000 miles in 18 months due to mainly bearing issues.

 

What do i do, and what are the side effects? 

[RedRuby]

I have always followed the manuals advise and fitted as instructed including torquing to the recommended torque setting. I always use timken and run 13” on both mini’s And have never had a problem. If you have the correct torque wrench do it to the recommendations and don’t tell your neighbour. See if that sorts out your issues.

[Spider]

If it's not tight enough, that will lead to short wheel bearing life, no question.

 

If it's too tight (and you'd need to get mega tight), you'll strip the thread on the nut before you'd crush the wheel bearing assembly, or do any other damage to it.

[imack]

For 35 years I've only ever done them 'red face tight'.
In fact I'm still running the same set of bearings (timkin) that came with the 2nd hand mk1 cooper s disc set up I bought from Tim Harbor at metro and minispares (now minimail) in Putney in around 1985. They've been stripped, cleaned and repacked a few times over the years but have done around 80k miles on my car plus whatever they'd done on the original car.
Same cv joints too!

[richmondclassicsnorthwales]

Stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

 

If you say that you done as your neighbour recommended, and it fails  -  oops

 

If you torque it up, and it fails, he will say,  told you so

 

Given your track record, don,t take it personally,  it could fail either way.  As good as playing Russian Roulette

 

Moke Spider put a really good article on about bearings - very informative and extremely useful

 

Don't over pack the bearings with too much grease is my pennies worth, and make sure the job was done with utmost cleanliness,  then, I would go with Red Ruby. 

 

If the job has been done as it should, there is no reason for them to fail this time round. Read Mokes post again though before tightening the nuts up and using the Mini..

 

Double check every thing, then go for the concluding chapter

 

Bon Chance

[M700FGT]

Thanks guys. Its just a difficult one as two garages have been utterly useless and he has been really helpful.

 

I don't want to offend him, and I don't want to hear told you so and not get any future help.

 

188-199 lbf ft sounds incredibly tight when you compare with every other torque setting on the Mini

[Spider]

188-199 lbf ft sounds incredibly tight when you compare with every other torque setting on the Mini

 

Given the size of these and the material they are made from, while it may make the eye's bulge, it's fine.

 

The early CVs had a Torque Setting of 150 ft/lb and later 197 ft/lb.

 

Keep in mid here too, that from the earlier days to later, tyre technology has improved and also on some models, tyre widths have increased, all adding extra load to the wheel bearings.

 

Also, the basic design of the original Drum Brake Mini Hub has the bearings inboard of centre, then with the disc Brakes adding additional track this was further increased. Going to wider wheels (as was fitted on some models and done after market), this goes even further again. All this adds considerably to the loads the bearing assembly.

 

If you have a good look at the Disc Brake set up;-

 

 

You can see that it's made up of a Live Shaft, with many smaller parts slipped over that. On the outboard end, we have another separate part, the Drive Flange, which 'hangs out' some way from it's mounted base and also, if you look and think about how that Drive Flange is actually mounted to the Live Shaft (the CV), on a loose fitting spline and then with a Tapered Washer on the outboard end to centralise it as well as hold it coff coff firm. The load centre is well outside of the centre line of the two bearings, it is all canter-levered and it rotates

 

Because the whole assembly is made up from all these small discrete components, and with the high potential movement (due to the mounting method of the Drive Flange) the whole assembly does have a tendency to 'lean over' just like a Bike going around a corner, when loaded up, especially when cornering. These create very high spot loadings, instead of distributing the load around the whole bearing. The evidence of this is the wear in the CV Shaft from the Wheel Bearings, the chafing wear on the back of the Drive Flange, were it buts up against the Wheel Bearing, the wear on the Tapered Washer under the Nut and also the wear seen on the Wheel Bearing Spacer.

 

This occurs far less with Drum Brakes (and the very early 7" Cooper Brakes) as the Bearing Mount and Drive Flange are once piece. Many (if not all) modern cars have a similar arrangement too.

 

If the CV Nut is under Torqued, the clamping of the assembly is reduced and the spot loadings go sky high. By getting that Nut as tight as it can sensibly be, the whole assembly is held together much tighter thus reducing this 'bike effect' of the bearing assembly.

 

 

 

You've mentioned that you've been to two garages )prior to your neighbour's help) - where they a Mini Specialist?

[richmondclassicsnorthwales]

Can't really put any more meat on the bones than what Moke has said, really really good points

 

I did write 3 paragraphs after this but deleted them, Garages,  I will say no more !!  Does not mean they blah blah blah and blah + + + blah de blah blah    blah

Edited by richmondclassicsnorthwales, 17 July 2019 - 07:58 PM.

[mini13]

the only things i can add are,

 

the pic above is an S setup, some of the later setups have different flanges and move the leverage out even more fromt he bearing, Also as said any movement in there will cause loosening due to the bearing end being able to float about, and they will keep coming loose until you replace the worn bits,

[M700FGT]

You have all been excellent on this matter and I really appreciate your help, especially Make. The full description has given me the confidence I needed confined what I suspected about the tightness pulling all the parts together.

 

I will torque these up tomorrow (discreetly) in my garage and just not mention it. 

 

Judging from my previous issues with bearings and standard non specialist garages, I'm assuming they also didn't do them up tight enough.

 

As for Mini specialists, there aren't really any that near to me. 

[richmondclassicsnorthwales]

I built rear and front frames for years, tailor made and standard for customers,  all using Timken and or a slightly cheaper version bearing,  but never those £11 single kits which include free post, you,  are asking for trouble and simply putting your money in the drain grid.

 

Never had bother or problems - Never.  

 

I packed up due to Arthritis as I was not able to handle the heavy parts with hand joint problems

 

Cleanliness and attention to detail, and not too much grease - you will be fine

 

The saying is - "Pay cheap - Pay twice - sometimes even more

 

I will not stock and have never stocked wheel bearings  in our shop simply because of the problems people encounter and have. Never had any complaints with the frames as I always supplied a step by step service guide and a mileage guide interval to observe and adjust

 

Bearings do need to handled very gently - treat them well,  you will get on fine and they will love you too !

[M700FGT]

I built rear and front frames for years, tailor made and standard for customers,  all using Timken and or a slightly cheaper version bearing,  but never those £11 single kits which include free post, you,  are asking for trouble and simply putting your money in the drain grid.

 

Never had bother or problems - Never.  

 

I packed up due to Arthritis as I was not able to handle the heavy parts with hand joint problems

 

Cleanliness and attention to detail, and not too much grease - you will be fine

 

The saying is - "Pay cheap - Pay twice - sometimes even more

 

I will not stock and have never stocked wheel bearings  in our shop simply because of the problems people encounter and have. Never had any complaints with the frames as I always supplied a step by step service guide and a mileage guide interval to observe and adjust

 

Bearings do need to handled very gently - treat them well,  you will get on fine and they will love you too !

Cheers for the advice.

 

However the new latest bearings I brought were from Mini Spares and apparently they fit them to all their cars.

 

Its easy to say avoid the cheap and I would normally agree, but in 18 months I have paid £150 for 3 Timkins, all needing two hours labour at about £70 per hour. Thats £570 that I have lost, and with other house refurbishment commitments, I either take a gamble on a cheaper bearing with free neighbour fitting, or leave the mini off the road to gather dust.

 

Im confident that with the parts now fitted correctly, and me torquing them  tomorrow, they should last allot longer this time. 

[Magneto]

I've used the Mini Spares bearings for years and lots of miles, never had a problem with them. Remember, you torque to spec then tighten further to the nearest hole for the cotter pin, don't back it off to make it fit to the hole. I don't think without one hell of a cheater bar that you can overtighten them.

[M700FGT]

I've used the Mini Spares bearings for years and lots of miles, never had a problem with them. Remember, you torque to spec then tighten further to the nearest hole for the cotter pin, don't back it off to make it fit to the hole. I don't think without one hell of a cheater bar that you can overtighten them.

Thanks for that - i will hopefully get the time tomorrow and then go for a test drive on Friday  

[richmondclassicsnorthwales]

It's a real kick in the "Cojones" with labour bills as such as those

 

There were a couple of bearing sets I picked up on with MiniSpares - And these were great quality and a good price. I have also bought some more on different occasions. Seem to remember delivering the steel when back in the early 80,s  I was a HGV driver to a place in Redditch  - Birmingham ?

 

Then,   some from else where, only once, never used them , you can see a quality and a feel,  and I fed them back on a quality issue.

 

I can't comment on the shaft on which the bearings sit, as I can't see them, this would also impact.

 

I certainly hope that this is the "Ultima Vez" for you on bearings,   I really do