50 replies to this topic

[pusb]

Hello,

 

I'm after some advice please on how to handle a delicate situation.

 

I live in a terraced, typical 1930s style house. I have a garage at the bottom of my garden, opening onto a small road that runs behind the house (referred to as an entry round here, but same thing as an alley, ginnel etc).

 

Access to this road runs between houses down to the main road at the front of the house. Until recently one of the houses that borders the access part of the road had an angle in their fence at the top of their garden, to allow vehicles to turn. They have now taken that angle out, meaning it is now impossible to make the turn and reach my garage. I've got a screenshot here from google earth with shows it better than I can describe.

 

 

 

The green square is to the front of my garage, the red lines represent where the fences were until recently, the blue line is the new fence they have built. As you can see, it leaves so little room to now make the turn that I cannot get to and from my garage. 

 

My immediate concern is that I am restoring my Mini in the garage. I don't want to spend loads of money building it up only to never be able to get it out on the road again! Being so small I might just be able to get the Mini to make the turn, but the opening is now so tight I will be worrying about scratching the new paintwork. Also there is a principle at stake, in that I should be able to drive any car around to my garage as far as I'm concerned.

 

I have my house deeds to hand 

 

 

 

These include a small map - 

 

 

 

And the following description

 

 

 

It says here that I have a right to "pass and repass" over the area shaded brown, the only clause being that I have a responsibility to contribute to the upkeep of the passage.

 

So as far as I am concerned the documents support my right of passage. However the neighbour in question can be a little difficult, and I think works nights so isn't the easiest to get hold of.

 

I am considering my first move as being to contact my local councillor, and seeing what he says. Unless anyone has a better suggestion?

Edited by pusb, 09 September 2019 - 06:25 PM.

[DeadSquare]

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

Edited by DeadSquare, 23 August 2019 - 07:06 PM.

[r3k1355]

The best thing to do is to go to the land registry and buy the deeds and plans for his house.

 

Looking at your plans they seem to show his property boundary ends at that angle, therefore he does not have the right to extend past that as has been done, because he does not own that land.

Purchase his deeds and you'll see if his plans show that too.

 

If he's illegally encroached on land he does not own it becomes alot easier to deal with.

 

Edited by r3k1355, 23 August 2019 - 07:27 PM.

[pusb]

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

 

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

 

Hi, thanks for your reply,

 

1) I've known that blue triangle to be part of the lane for 30+ years. I've lived here virtually my whole life as it was my parents house previously

2) I think it was always part of it. I remember until about 15 years ago the house on the opposite corner also had that angle on the fence, so they were symmetrical. 

3) I know a few of the neighbours well enough. I will see what I can find out from them

[pusb]

The best thing to do is to go to the land registry and buy the deeds and plans for his house.

 

Looking at your plans they seem to show his property boundary ends at that angle, therefore he does not have the right to extend past that as has been done, because he does not own that land.

Purchase his deeds and you'll see if his plans show that too.

 

If he's illegally encroached on land he does not own it becomes alot easier to deal with.

 

 

I didn't know that you could request the deeds for someone else's house. Thanks for that information, I will give it a try!

[DeadSquare]

 

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

 

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

 

Hi, thanks for your reply,

 

1) I've known that blue triangle to be part of the lane for 30+ years. I've lived here virtually my whole life as it was my parents house previously

2) I think it was always part of it. I remember until about 15 years ago the house on the opposite corner also had that angle on the fence, so they were symmetrical. 

3) I know a few of the neighbours well enough. I will see what I can find out from them

 

 

By "the opposite corner", do you mean by the building at the end of the garden between your garage and the lane running down to the road ?

 

It looks, from the picture, as if that building has encroached on part of the triangular land marked brown on your plan.

[pusb]

 

 

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

 

Time has a lot to do with things like this.  If a situation has existed, unchallenged, for something like 25 years, then the law says that this has become the accepted situation.  It means that if the blue fence line is not challenged, it will, in time, become permanent.

 

1)  How long have you known the blue triangle to have been a part of the lane system ?

 

2)  I see that your deed is dated 1936, so the situation was set out over 80 years ago, has always been accepted as part of the lane.

 

3) Do you know any neighbours well enough, like the one whose garage is at the bottom of the picture, who also has a right of access onto the back lane, that you can ask to see their deeds ?  because the situation for that house in now worse than yours.

 

Hi, thanks for your reply,

 

1) I've known that blue triangle to be part of the lane for 30+ years. I've lived here virtually my whole life as it was my parents house previously

2) I think it was always part of it. I remember until about 15 years ago the house on the opposite corner also had that angle on the fence, so they were symmetrical. 

3) I know a few of the neighbours well enough. I will see what I can find out from them

 

 

By "the opposite corner", do you mean by the building at the end of the garden between your garage and the lane running down to the road ?

 

It looks, from the picture, as if that building has encroached on part of the triangular land marked brown on your plan.

 

 

Yes, that's the one.

 

They are my next door neighbours. They took the corner out of theirs about 15 years ago. It didn't matter too much at the time as there was still enough room to swing around

[DeadSquare]

The neighbour shouldn't have done it.  It probably gave the new chap the notion that he could do the same to his corner.  Time goes by very quickly, and day by day he is strengthening his right to that part of the land marked brown on your plan.

 

Has the new fence made it more difficult for your neighbour to use his building ?

 

In the nicest way with your neighbour, as soon as possible, you MUST explain that you have the right to pass and re pass over the land that your neighbour has misappropriated.

 

Your neighbour won't like it, which will be difficult, but presumably he has taken for his own use, land marked brown on other people's deeds.

 

When you contact the Land registry, as an upright citizen, you ought to mention both infringements.

[pusb]

The neighbour shouldn't have done it.  It probably gave the new chap the notion that he could do the same to his corner.  Time goes by very quickly, and day by day he is strengthening his right to that part of the land marked brown on your plan.

 

Has the new fence made it more difficult for your neighbour to use his building ?

 

In the nicest way with your neighbour, as soon as possible, you MUST explain that you have the right to pass and re pass over the land that your neighbour has misappropriated.

 

Your neighbour won't like it, which will be difficult, but presumably he has taken for his own use, land marked brown on other people's deeds.

 

When you contact the Land registry, as an upright citizen, you ought to mention both infringements.

 

Yes I think your right. 

 

And yes, that building in my neighbours garden is also a garage, pointing into the lane rather than the same direction as mine. He doesn't keep a car in there, but it literally would be impossible for him to even get one out of his garage now.

 

I get on well with those neighbours, so I'm sure that if I explain that it's nothing personal they will understand.

[Homersimpson]

Looking at this I think the issue is that you don't actually have any rights over the land that the neighbour has recently extended their fence into (the blue area on your plan) as this is not shown on your deeds.

 

Other people might have rights over this land but you dont and therefore taking action about this is likely to be difficult as you have no rights over this land to enforce.

 

When your immediate neighbour extended their fence 15 years ago that was the time you should have objected as you did have rights over this land, however, you may find that after this time you have lost any rights over this land due to adverse possession (this would depend on exactly when they did this as the rules changed around 2002 IIRC).  I completely understand why you didn't object as it wasn't an issue and no one wants a neighbour dispute and hindsight is always 20/20.

[Ethel]

If people have been using any of it access continuously for more than 20 years it doesn't matter whether it's set out in a covenant. Of course, you'd have to prove that. It's a "prescriptive easement established by long usage" and is a matter for the Land Registry.

I reckon you all own part of the lane, out to its centre line where it joins your property. It has to belong to someone.

 

You'll probably be liable for your own bit, but you can ask those who share the lane to contribute to any reasonable maintenance costs.

 

It'd be useful to see his deeds to see how his bit of the lane is described. It looks like he's taking the 8ft width to its literal extreme.

 

Many solicitors we give you an initial consultation for a fixed fee and there's Citizens Advice.

[pusb]

If people have been using any of it access continuously for more than 20 years it doesn't matter whether it's set out in a covenant. Of course, you'd have to prove that. It's a "prescriptive easement established by long usage" and is a matter for the Land Registry.

I reckon you all own part of the lane, out to its centre line where it joins your property. It has to belong to someone.

 

You'll probably be liable for your own bit, but you can ask those who share the lane to contribute to any reasonable maintenance costs.

 

It'd be useful to see his deeds to see how his bit of the lane is described. It looks like he's taking the 8ft width to its literal extreme.

 

Many solicitors we give you an initial consultation for a fixed fee and there's Citizens Advice.

 

On the map, the way I read the deeds is that I own the green bit (which is the part outside my garage), and that I am responsible for its upkeep but to allow access to houses further up the road. 

[pusb]

Looking at this I think the issue is that you don't actually have any rights over the land that the neighbour has recently extended their fence into (the blue area on your plan) as this is not shown on your deeds.

 

Other people might have rights over this land but you dont and therefore taking action about this is likely to be difficult as you have no rights over this land to enforce.

 

When your immediate neighbour extended their fence 15 years ago that was the time you should have objected as you did have rights over this land, however, you may find that after this time you have lost any rights over this land due to adverse possession (this would depend on exactly when they did this as the rules changed around 2002 IIRC).  I completely understand why you didn't object as it wasn't an issue and no one wants a neighbour dispute and hindsight is always 20/20.

 

You might be right, however I think people further down the road must be entitled to access. I may have to do some rebel rousing with them!

[DeadSquare]

Show a colour photo copy of your plan to the new offending neighbour and explain to him that he has inadvertently fenced into his land, a piece of the lane that doesn't belong to him, but add that you will withdraw your comment and apologise if his deeds show that that portion of the lane has been transferred to him when he bought his house.

 

The ball is then in his court.

[Ethel]

I don't think there's any doubt it belongs to him. It's whether he has to keep it unobstructed to allow the other residents access.