41 replies to this topic

[Mini Manannán]

I'm not sure what wide-band you're thinking of for £300+, this is the one I've been using: https://www.efi-part...p?productID=204

Do you actually need the gauge or just the Wideband Sensor ?

https://www.efi-part...p?productID=170

Ah, that is JUST the sensor Chris. I was lazy and didn't check your link, I thought you'd meant something like this one: https://www.efi-part...?productID=327.
Which I assume just gives you a 5v out for data logging

[retired]

I built a Speeduino last year, really just as a comparison to the Megasquirt-2 that I use on my Mini, and potentially to use it instead of a Megasquirt in another ongoing project.

 

The only difference you will see in TunerStudio (apart from the "ini" file title) is the indicators available at the bottom of the screen and potentially the menu layout at the top - but the menu layout varies within the megasquirt ranges anyway depending on which version of the firmware you are using.

 

But when you select the ignition advance table, it's just a table irrespective of hardware or firmware.

 

As already mentioned the "standard" Speeduino only has logic level spark outputs so you would either need a separate 2 channel ignition amplifier to run the old Ford EDIS wasted spark coilpack, or a logic level wasted spark coilpack, or a logic level normal coilpack (4 built-in coils) or logic level COP/CNP. The 4 coil coilpacks or COP/CNP would require a cam sensor as anything with 4 coils is, by definition, fully sequential.

 

I now use the Bosch coilpack, the fairly common one, usually goes under part number 06A905097, but my setup is fully sequential anyway because I run the MS-2 siamese code (which is unique to the MS-2) as I run port injection.

 

And that's the only reason I wouldn't use the Speeduino on my Mini, it doesn't have any unique code to deal with charge robbing on the injection side of things.

 

But for ignition only, or for injection on a normal 8 port engine (or wet manifold on an A series and ignore the charge robbing) I would say it's about half way between an MS-2 and an MS-3 and way superior to Megajolt, and probably a lot cheaper, esp. if you build it yourself.

 

If you are familiar with TunerStudio already, just download the latest Speeduino "ini" file and create yourself a temporary project and have a look.

 

EDIT - and for the wideband have a look at the 14point7 stuff. The Spartan 2 (or 3) is very popular in the Megasquirt world. Only one supplier in the UK I think (I buy my stuff straight from Alan in Canada). In the early days I tried Innovate (numerous controller failures) then TechEdge (very good but ultimately didn't have one feature I needed) but have found the particular 14point7 modules I use to be very reliable.

Edited by retired, 06 November 2019 - 11:20 AM.

[Ethel]

yes that is it,, its a case of you soldered it together, if ti fails on him on the rollers, it could either damage the car and you would try to blame him, or not be working right, so he could not map the car. So how can he ask £300 from you for not even tuning anything when he could just book in someone with dta or something else and get on with the job.

 

 

 

 A Rolling Road should have their own standalone diagnostic kit to indicate when your engine is in danger of eating itself. If you turned up with a carb and clockwork dizzy it'd be an absolute necessity.

 

There might be an argument if your old banger presented a danger of burning their premises down, but that sort of catastrophe is more likely to be because a cam belt let go, or other mechanical failure that could happen regardless of how fancy your aftermarket engine management is. Their liability won't be any greater because your diy soldered dry joint caused your ignition to cut out leaving you to  lift the car off his rollers after it's coasted to a stop.

[Spider]

 

 

I'm not sure what wide-band you're thinking of for £300+, this is the one I've been using: https://www.efi-part...p?productID=204

Do you actually need the gauge or just the Wideband Sensor ?

https://www.efi-part...p?productID=170

Ah, that is JUST the sensor Chris. I was lazy and didn't check your link, I thought you'd meant something like this one: https://www.efi-part...?productID=327.
Which I assume just gives you a 5v out for data logging

 

 

It was just the way I was 'reading' the posts around this that for some reason the Speedunio needed the sensor (which it seems it does not) and that was what my post was skewed towards. Can understanding for a 'fueling' kit, but can't see what it would do in a 'spark' kit.

[Mini Manannán]

I built a Speeduino last year, really just as a comparison to the Megasquirt-2 that I use on my Mini, and potentially to use it instead of a Megasquirt in another ongoing project.

 

The only difference you will see in TunerStudio (apart from the "ini" file title) is the indicators available at the bottom of the screen and potentially the menu layout at the top - but the menu layout varies within the megasquirt ranges anyway depending on which version of the firmware you are using.

 

But when you select the ignition advance table, it's just a table irrespective of hardware or firmware.

 

As already mentioned the "standard" Speeduino only has logic level spark outputs so you would either need a separate 2 channel ignition amplifier to run the old Ford EDIS wasted spark coilpack, or a logic level wasted spark coilpack, or a logic level normal coilpack (4 built-in coils) or logic level COP/CNP. The 4 coil coilpacks or COP/CNP would require a cam sensor as anything with 4 coils is, by definition, fully sequential.

 

I now use the Bosch coilpack, the fairly common one, usually goes under part number 06A905097, but my setup is fully sequential anyway because I run the MS-2 siamese code (which is unique to the MS-2) as I run port injection.

 

And that's the only reason I wouldn't use the Speeduino on my Mini, it doesn't have any unique code to deal with charge robbing on the injection side of things.

 

But for ignition only, or for injection on a normal 8 port engine (or wet manifold on an A series and ignore the charge robbing) I would say it's about half way between an MS-2 and an MS-3 and way superior to Megajolt, and probably a lot cheaper, esp. if you build it yourself.

 

If you are familiar with TunerStudio already, just download the latest Speeduino "ini" file and create yourself a temporary project and have a look.

 

EDIT - and for the wideband have a look at the 14point7 stuff. The Spartan 2 (or 3) is very popular in the Megasquirt world. Only one supplier in the UK I think (I buy my stuff straight from Alan in Canada). In the early days I tried Innovate (numerous controller failures) then TechEdge (very good but ultimately didn't have one feature I needed) but have found the particular 14point7 modules I use to be very reliable.

 

Very interesting, thanks.  As I said earlier, I'm only aiming for ignition at first. Getting our brains round it is the major obstacle as we have no experience with it.  We've assembled the hardware.

 

  I had read about the siamese code by voyeurising the Turbomini forum, how much of a difference does it 'real world' make?

 

  You say port injection, 2 or 4 injectors?  My mate had an idea for a 4 injector setup but 'tis but an idea and a CAD drawing yet.

[Avtovaz]

right ok i see about the charge robbing on the injection, but what about single point injecton system they did on the mini? I was told running any injection on a mini was hard. I am talking of spi the turbo set up.

 

 

I think we are on again for the speeduino then, but im not buying straight away as the car is ages away.

[hazpalmer14]

Spi is a wet manifold set up, if im right. It's basically a electronic carb

[retired]

Simplistically the SPI is "wet manifold" or "electronic carb". The MPI is closest you can get to "port injection" with an A series head and the way Rover made that inlet manifold (my injectors are a bit closer than the MPI manifold).

 

Rover had to change to the MPI setup for the final years because they couldn't meet the emissions requirements with SPI because the charge robbing puts unburnt fuel through the inner cylinders if the outers are going to run OK.

 

If you have widebands on both the inner and outer cylinders exhausts on a carb or wet manifold injection engine the AFR difference is obvious, it varies between 0.5 to 1.5 AFR units (depending on RPM and load).

 

Not too much of an issue for a mildly tuned engine but once you go turbo I think it becomes a bit more important (but I'm in the minority even on the turbominis forum, and there are only about four of us using port injection, the majority still use the sealed SU, or a wet manifold injection setup, Specialist Components version being the most popular).

 

The MPI injection regime and the MS-2 siamese code are very similar in terms of how they deal with charge robbing - different amounts of fuel injected into the inner and outer cylinders by timing the injection pulses when the respective inlet valves are open - the main difference being that you can map the MS-2 for any output whereas the MPI MEMS unit is pretty much fixed for the original engine output.

 

And you can do staged injection with the MS-2 (4 injectors but run as 2 pairs, the second of the pair openning at higher loads).

 

But, back to the original question, from the experiments I did with the basic Speeduino last year you should have absolutely no problem with ignition and for a wet manifold / electronic carb setup I see absolutely no reason why it would be any worse than any other ECU and the TunerStudio interface is a hell of a lot better than the Specialist Components software (sorry JK...).

 

I just wouldn't use it on a port injected turbo mini because I have three widebands (inners, outers and downpipe after the turbo) and know what charge robbing really is.

 

If you search on the turbominis forum you will find a lot of actual AFR data, most of mine got lost when photobucket committed commercial suicide, but there is a lot of recent stuff from Graham T - funny thing is you will only find inner vs outer AFR data from those of us running EFI......

[Avtovaz]

right ok, so ill go for the speeduino and the wideband and tune it myself then.

 

Now, the next question is which way to go now. I mean, i have a non turbo hif44 or 38 it maybe in the loft buried. I also have just bought a metro turbo plenum, and inlet manifold. With the speeduino then, i can easily run the injector [i take it the spi is one injector?]  like the idea of injection more than a carb, but maybe the carb is a better way. I could sell the carb stuff again, and there after a quick check on ebay is a spi inlet for £60.

Edited by Avtovaz, 07 November 2019 - 07:48 PM.

[mini13]

the SPI is a "low Presure" system and runs about 12 psi fuel pressure, iirc this is taken care of in the SPI housing somwhere? also it looks tricky to couple a boost hose onto the SPI setup.

If i were doing a TB system to replace a carb, I would get a throttle from somthing like a K series or MPI so you have a buterfly with a TPS sensor, then add in a pair of injectors and a MAT sensor between the TB and manifold. essentially copying the Specialist components setup on the cheap.

in terms of your carb, the non turbo carbs can be rebuilt to turbo spec,  the metro turbo plenum has a restrictor ring in it for the HIF44  to presurise the float bowl so it will actually work, if you bolt this on to a HIF 38 it wont restrict so you'll get a lean condition under boost.

[Avtovaz]

i dont think getting the boost onto the spi inlet would be so hard, but that and putting a tps etc onto it maybe, and maybe with the injector wires inside of the boost area may not be teh best idea .

 

I like the idea now of efi on this and not the carb a lot.

 

i was thinking of a few ways, but do you need to have 2 injectors? Bear in mind im not after big power, its just a bit of fun now.

 

one of something liek this?

 

 

or this?

 

or using a webber type throttle body but using one side like you would with splits, but cutting one side off. i dont want to mod the bulkhead at all though

 

or getting a throttle body made.

[Ethel]

I think the plenum's restrictor would work with a 38. The important bit is that the ports to the underside of the carb piston are on the outside of the restrictor. Of course there's still be an eighth inch step into the carb throat and I doubt those communication ports will line up without some fettling.

Easier to find a 44

[mini13]

Actually you can probably do it in energy injector ok, it looks like you'll need somthing like a 600cc injector, this sort of size is hard to find as manufacturers parts,
Apart from coupling boost in, The injector wires in the plenum and the lack of injector sizes puts me off the spi setup, the linked body looks good but it's gonna be pricey, hence the suggestion of the k series tb, another thought, there are bike throttles with injector ports built in, I've dabbled with the early gsxr600 throttles that ban be separated and replaced ( or used separately), but usually they are rubber coupled might be an issue keeping together.

Below us some handy stuff on injector sizing by the way

http://www.megamanua...manual/minj.htm


In terms of the restrictor ring, it needs to be smaller than the throttle plate, other wise it'll go lean at full throttle, right where you don't want it. The other option is a pitot tube.

[Avtovaz]

been thinking about this today, and what im trying to do; i want to turbo my mini. Now, efi is good, but its much simpler to run the speeduino, wideband it, use the hif44 and the plenum i have, and just tune it to suit.

 

 

Its getting too complex for this car to inject it.

 

So ill order the speeduino this week some time i think. thanks ;)))

[mini13]

Good call, you can always inject it later on.