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#16 unburntfuelinthemorning

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 08:00 PM

 

This might help:

https://www.esso.co.uk/stations

 

Thanks, the nearby Tesco does Esso fuel and Super's available there.



#17 mini-mad-mark

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 10:13 PM

 

For a low mileage classic car one option is AVGAS 100LL aviation petrol. Not cheap, but it is 'real' petrol. I used to use it in my Cooper S which has 11:1 CR.

The implications of using Avgas in a road vehicle are the same as running red diesel instead of DERV.

 

 

Chilling reading: https://www.gov.uk/g...-a-road-vehicle

 

"What will happen if you misuse rebated fuel:

Where we find your road vehicle is fuelled with rebated oil, we’ll seize it. We may also issue an assessment of fuel duty payable and a wrongdoing penalty based on the extent of your illegal fuel use.

In the more serious cases involving assault, repeated offending or dishonesty, criminal action may be taken. The offender can be fined an unlimited amount or imprisoned for up to 7 years, or both."

 

 

This doc doesn't specifically mention Avgas (in any of its variants) - it does mention Avtur which if I understand correctly is jet fuel kerosene which is dyed yellow (vis-a-vis Red diesel) to make it detectable however you probably wouldn't want to run a mini on it anyway? Might be OK for an old tractor.

 

On the subject of Avgas 100LL - Google says (so it must be true!) that it is planned to be phased out and it mentions three companies working on unleaded 100+ octane replacements



#18 mini-mad-mark

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 10:15 PM

I use Shell Super duper or whatever its called now or the Esso equivalent by the by



#19 cal844

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Posted 17 March 2020 - 10:59 PM

Porche Carrera cup GB race cars use 104 octane, roughly £2.50 a litre! I think kd blow the head off an A series with the bang from that lol

#20 DeadSquare

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 06:55 AM

Porche Carrera cup GB race cars use 104 octane, roughly £2.50 a litre! I think kd blow the head off an A series with the bang from that lol

 

40 years ago, 105 Octane was available country wide as a 5***** pump fuel.



#21 Quinlan minor

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 07:54 AM

 

 

 

 

This doc doesn't specifically mention Avgas (in any of its variants) - it does mention Avtur which if I understand correctly is jet fuel kerosene which is dyed yellow (vis-a-vis Red diesel) to make it detectable however you probably wouldn't want to run a mini on it anyway? Might be OK for an old tractor.

 

On the subject of Avgas 100LL - Google says (so it must be true!) that it is planned to be phased out and it mentions three companies working on unleaded 100+ octane replacements

 

 

DERV (Diesel-Engined Road Vehicle) which carries a tax premium over equivalent fuel for non-road use.

AVGAS (aviation gasoline) as distinguished from mogas (motor gasoline) has not been subjected to Fuel Duty, included in the price you pay for petrol, diesel and other fuels used in vehicles (57.95 pence per litre, currently, on petrol).

Consequently, HMRC view its use, on the road as Tax evasion, not a problem if you're Amazon, Facebook or Google, but for the likes of us, particularly those who write it down in a public forum or discuss it openly in groups, the penalties are draconian: vehicle confiscation, massive fines, backcharging of 'estimated' unpaid duty and imprisonment!

Your call!

 

 

 



#22 unburntfuelinthemorning

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 07:58 AM

 

DERV (Diesel-Engined Road Vehicle) which carries a tax premium over equivalent fuel for non-road use.

AVGAS (aviation gasoline) as distinguished from mogas (motor gasoline) has not been subjected to Fuel Duty, included in the price you pay for petrol, diesel and other fuels used in vehicles (57.95 pence per litre, currently, on petrol).

Consequently, HMRC view its use, on the road as Tax evasion, not a problem if you're Amazon, Facebook or Google, but for the likes of us, particularly those who write it down in a public forum or discuss it openly in groups, the penalties are draconian: vehicle confiscation, massive fines, backcharging of 'estimated' unpaid duty and imprisonment!

Your call!

 

Similar consequences to failure to pay the BBC tax then.



#23 unburntfuelinthemorning

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 08:00 AM

Saw this article about E10 a while back and thought it was a good'un so I'll just put it here.



#24 DeadSquare

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 09:35 AM

I can remember my mother being delighted to get some 85 Octane after the war, when there had only been "Pool Petrol" which was very poor as it contained so much paraffin that in winter my father sometimes used to put a lighted candle under the carb to get the car started, and even having to do it in the summer when it was even more diluted.

 

85 Octane was available into the 70s, at a somewhat reduced price for tractors and inshore fishing boats, that ran on paraffin but had to be started on petrol. They had about a 6:1 CR.

 

The "Octane Rating" is fixed, so sample engines are tested for pre-detonation with different grades of fuel to give the fuel its "Octane number", and the fuel's "Octane constituents" (eg: Lead), can change to meet the "Octane number". ..... BUT, so can improvements in the engine sample, so that when "knock sensors" were introduced that adjusted the ignition under load, an inferior fuel could be given a higher "Star" for the same "Octane number".

 

As, (like Farenheit, Kelvin, Reaumur and Centigrade), there are different Octane scales, the Star system was introduced because motorists were deemed to be confused by Octane numbers.  For a while, the number and a star rating were displayed on the pump, and I only once saw a One star 85 pump, in Lowesroft.  Two star could be 91, 92 or 93.

 

As a slightly amusing footnote, back in the late 70s, the AVGAS 100LL in my Bell G5 helicopter was 100 Octane;  the same fuel in my turbocharged Bell 3B1 was 130 Octane.



#25 DeadSquare

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 10:03 AM

 

 

 

 

 

This doc doesn't specifically mention Avgas (in any of its variants) - it does mention Avtur which if I understand correctly is jet fuel kerosene which is dyed yellow (vis-a-vis Red diesel) to make it detectable however you probably wouldn't want to run a mini on it anyway? Might be OK for an old tractor.

 

On the subject of Avgas 100LL - Google says (so it must be true!) that it is planned to be phased out and it mentions three companies working on unleaded 100+ octane replacements

 

 

DERV (Diesel-Engined Road Vehicle) which carries a tax premium over equivalent fuel for non-road use.

AVGAS (aviation gasoline) as distinguished from mogas (motor gasoline) has not been subjected to Fuel Duty, included in the price you pay for petrol, diesel and other fuels used in vehicles (57.95 pence per litre, currently, on petrol).

Consequently, HMRC view its use, on the road as Tax evasion, not a problem if you're Amazon, Facebook or Google, but for the likes of us, particularly those who write it down in a public forum or discuss it openly in groups, the penalties are draconian: vehicle confiscation, massive fines, backcharging of 'estimated' unpaid duty and imprisonment!

Your call!

 

 

 

Right...........So you have to use Mogas on the flat, but it is OK to use Avgas while the car is in the air over a hump.



#26 unburntfuelinthemorning

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 10:18 AM

I can remember my mother being delighted to get some 85 Octane after the war, when there had only been "Pool Petrol" which was very poor as it contained so much paraffin that in winter my father sometimes used to put a lighted candle under the carb to get the car started, and even having to do it in the summer when it was even more diluted.

 

85 Octane was available into the 70s, at a somewhat reduced price for tractors and inshore fishing boats, that ran on paraffin but had to be started on petrol. They had about a 6:1 CR.

 

The "Octane Rating" is fixed, so sample engines are tested for pre-detonation with different grades of fuel to give the fuel its "Octane number", and the fuel's "Octane constituents" (eg: Lead), can change to meet the "Octane number". ..... BUT, so can improvements in the engine sample, so that when "knock sensors" were introduced that adjusted the ignition under load, an inferior fuel could be given a higher "Star" for the same "Octane number".

 

As, (like Farenheit, Kelvin, Reaumur and Centigrade), there are different Octane scales, the Star system was introduced because motorists were deemed to be confused by Octane numbers.  For a while, the number and a star rating were displayed on the pump, and I only once saw a One star 85 pump, in Lowesroft.  Two star could be 91, 92 or 93.

Ahh.  I only remember **, *** and **** petrol.  Never saw ***** and always wondered why it started at **.



#27 sonscar

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 10:51 AM

I always thought of A series engines as fairly primative resilient motors and run mine on cheapest unleaded.My 1098 sprite had hardened seats fitted due to wear but I used four star.When this became difficult to source I tried unleaded and it ran very badly so I switched to LRP(remember that?).When that became scarce I reverted to unleaded again and it ran well so something changed in the fuel.E5 seems to have no effect on my classics,but then I am a bit of old  agricultural/blacksmith in my driving.Steve...



#28 unburntfuelinthemorning

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 11:22 AM

A series engines are fairly primitive and resilient but can still run into detonation problems if a fuel of too low an octane is used.  This varies due to a number of factors, the main ones being compression ratio, type of camshaft and ignition timing and is more likely on, but not exclusive to modified engines.  Also an engine will run on lower octane fuel than ideal but you won't be able to optimise the ignition timing (due to detonation problems) so will have to put up with lower performance and higher fuel consumption than you would if the octane level was sufficient.



#29 Spider

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 07:05 PM

Interesting discussion guys.

 

I've stayed out of it as the E5 situation at this time appears unique in the UK or, maybe I should say, not one we have here - yet.

 

We do have E10 though.

 

I've found that Fuels that have any Ethanol in them play havoc and I avoid them like the plague, though I know I have had some that have been contaminated. Interestingly at this time, when traveling in to remote towns, that may only have one type of petrol it is not a fuel that has Ethanol (thank goodness).

 

Problems I've found is that performance is noticeably down, while longer terms problems I've seen in other Minis and Mokes is rusting of the fuel tank, corrosion in the steel fuel lines, perishing of the rubber parts, corrosion in the fuel bowl (and this can be very bad on the cars that get parked up) and fuel pump issues.

 

It's cat's pee. I don't like it one bit.



#30 gazza82

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Posted 18 March 2020 - 11:14 PM

I can remember my mother being delighted to get some 85 Octane after the war, when there had only been "Pool Petrol" which was very poor as it contained so much paraffin that in winter my father sometimes used to put a lighted candle under the carb to get the car started, and even having to do it in the summer when it was even more diluted.
 
85 Octane was available into the 70s, at a somewhat reduced price for tractors and inshore fishing boats, that ran on paraffin but had to be started on petrol. They had about a 6:1 CR.
 
The "Octane Rating" is fixed, so sample engines are tested for pre-detonation with different grades of fuel to give the fuel its "Octane number", and the fuel's "Octane constituents" (eg: Lead), can change to meet the "Octane number". ..... BUT, so can improvements in the engine sample, so that when "knock sensors" were introduced that adjusted the ignition under load, an inferior fuel could be given a higher "Star" for the same "Octane number".
 
As, (like Farenheit, Kelvin, Reaumur and Centigrade), there are different Octane scales, the Star system was introduced because motorists were deemed to be confused by Octane numbers.  For a while, the number and a star rating were displayed on the pump, and I only once saw a One star 85 pump, in Lowesroft.  Two star could be 91, 92 or 93.


Ahh.  I only remember **, *** and **** petrol.  Never saw ***** and always wondered why it started at **.

My old Triumph 2.5Pi Estate ran on 5 star ... and ran like a pig on 4 when I couldn't get it ...




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