24 replies to this topic

[Tonylamb]

Couple of weeks ago the car wouldn't start. Bumped it and off it went. Whenever i turn the ignition the whole car would die. Disconnecting the starter motor and all the electrics came back. its a preengaged starter on an A+ non verto flywheel. I took the starter out and earthed the starter and touched both the solenoid and starter to the positive. Nothing not a squeek?? SO i ordered a new motor from mini spares. put that in the car. Click nothing. Took it out again and that doesn't work either. What am i doing wrong or is it possible that the new starter is faulty right off the bat. normally when you connect a battery to a starter motor it spins right over. Both batteries i used have at least 12.5 volts?? I'm a bit mistified to be honest.

[nicklouse]

first off non Verto should use an inertia starter. verto used the pre engage. 

 

pre engage has a starter relay that has been known to fail.

 

inertia just has the solenoid.

 

 

yes connecting a battery directly to the terminal and the case should get it to kick into life. but 12.5 is a bit low. but should do something.

 

I would also be counting flywheel teeth.

[Tonylamb]

I had the original starter which is a pre engaged on the car for 2000 miles. it was on occasion a bit sluggish. I put that down to high compression ratio. The teeth on the flywheel seem OK but I will check. What doesn't make sense is that two starters won't go with a direct connection to a battery.

[Tonylamb]

How do I tell if I have the right flywheel and starter combination. As i said its an A plus engine but the engine builder put in a pre verto with an orange diaphram. I understand you can use a pre engaged starter with the right flywheel and a pre verto???

[Ethel]

The clutch isn't an absolute indicator of the starter type. Metros started out with  pre-verto clutches & I can't remember if the clutches or starters changed first.

 

Anyway, the ring gears are can be changed and pre-verto clutches were the choice for performance modded cars. The ring gear teeth are chamfered to aid meshing with the drive pinions & as inertia motors pull the pinion towards the motor, while pre-engaged push it away from the motor, they should be chamfered on different sides. The chamfer on a pre-engaged ring should be  facing the motor mounting hole.

 

How are you testing your motors? 

 

The body of the motor needs to be earthed. The +ve screw terminal connection with the nut is to the solenoid, the motor itself is powered via the short link cable built in to the motor assembly. You need to energise the solenoid as well, via the large spade terminal, which moves the pinion before connecting the motor to the battery cable screw post internally.

[nicklouse]

How do I tell if I have the right flywheel and starter combination. As i said its an A plus engine but the engine builder put in a pre verto with an orange diaphram. I understand you can use a pre engaged starter with the right flywheel and a pre verto???

it comes down to the number of teeth on the flywheel. inertia starters need 107 teeth ion the flywheel pre engage need 129 teeth. if you have a pre verto with 107 then you need a different starter.

 

on my build i have a pre verto with 129 teeth and a pre engage starter as that is the way they are when you dont have a separate ring gear.

 

ring gears can be changed between the flywheels to allow different set ups generally (but not always) incorrect starter and ring gear cause problems.

[Tonylamb]

thanks gents as always proper advice on here. I will count the number of teeth and look at the chamfer.

When testing the motor i have been using a pair of jump leads direct to a battery? earthing the body of the motor. Positive to the large connection on the solenoid then a bit of wire to connect positive to the large spade terminal. This should trigger the solenoid and turn the motor. Alternatively grounding the motor and touching the positive jump lead to the lower wire of the solenoid should bipass the solenoid and turn the motor. Neither seem to work. I only have 12.5 v in my spare battery but that should be enough to get a reaction. Nada???

[Ethel]

Voltage isn't 100% reliable, until you're drawing current it's only part of an indication. Pre engaged solenoids take a bit of effort - you could put the +ve jump lead  directly to the spade to test it without the motor.

[Tonylamb]

Well now I feel a bit dumb. The old starter was dead when connected to my spare battery and to the one in the car. So I ordered a new starter. The new one wouldn't work either. But if you jump lead both the motors off my Toyota Yaris (14.6v with the engine working) both motors work. So I'm now assuming that its either the battery in the car or the earth lead was weak to the engine. I'm going to fully charge the battery in the car and put the old starter motor back in. I'll see if that works. If not I'll jump it with both batteries from the Yaris and see if it works. Perhaps it was something in the wiring but as its just one great big battery lead from the boot I can't see what the problem might be. I'll report back later. I did notice that the alternator belt is a little loose, not seriously, but maybe the battery hasn't been charging fully???

[Tonylamb]

So I've fully charged the battery and put the starter motor back in. When I push the ignition switch the starter clicks a little and the dash lights dimm out. I tightened the engine earth strap. So I can only assume that its a short somewhere. can I run a wire from the positive to the large spade terminal in order to throw the starter solenoid? The spring part of the ignition switch on my car was faulty so i have an ignition button. perhaps the issue lays there??? Any thoughts?

[nicklouse]

how long was it on charge? needs a good 24 hours to condition and charge it.

[Ethel]

You've not mentioned a starter relay. A pre-engaged starter is really too much load for the ignition barrel and likely also too much for the original wiring. You can test if that's the issue by running a wire from the battery terminal on the solenoid directly to the cranking spade terminal. Pliers will be handy as it's liable to get warm & be sure the car's in neutral!

 

It could also be frayed/poor connections on any battery and/or earth cabling.

[Tonylamb]

My ignition barrel never worked on position three. Possibly burned out by the same issue you refer to. So I bypassed it with a simple push button starter. Which I quite like anyway. Perhaps the issue is in the wiring of the switch. The wierd bit is that when i turn on the ignition i can here the click of the electric fuel pump but only sometimes. Also the lights which are independent of the ignition switch sometimes come on sometimes they don't??? If you have the lights on and throw the ignition switch the whole lot goes out. So it would appear that some form of drain connected to the ignition swith is in effect. except as I said the lights are independent of that. It really makes no sense at all?

Thinking about this should I have a relay from my starter button I was assuming that the big load was through the main battery cable. The load through the switch being much less and only on for a few seconds. But should I have a relay in that starter button circuit. Perhaps that circuit has shorted out. Although that would surely smell somewhere and flatten the battery? At a loss.

[Ethel]

The biggest load is through the battery cable to the actual motor, but a pre-engaged solenoid has quite a bit more to do, in chucking the pinion in to the starter ring, than the wing mounted inertia jobby that's just a big relay really. If there's too much extra resistance, when the motor kicks in, the voltage drop can lead to the solenoid dropping out. That in turn disconnects the motor 'n the cycle starts again giving the classic chattering associated with  flat batteries - but not always.

[Tonylamb]

The mystery here is why the lights are working intermitently along with the ignition switch? This only seems to happen with the battery cable connected to the starter motor??? Disconnect the starter and all the other electrics are fine. I still have the old solenoid on the wing but am just using it as a junction box basically If the main battery cable was shorting out the battery would go flat pretty quickly. The only other wire connected to the starter is the ignition swtich/button. i suppose I could trace that back to the switch or remove it and use a short wire as you suggested. Any other suggestions or ideas of where to look. Presumably a process of elimination from this point.