Okay I'm having major problems with my ignition
1st) Could someone explain how I could retime the ignition as it doesn't seem right. Second how do I check I got the leads on in the right places on the dizzy cap? I found TDC of cylinder 1 by sticking a screw driver into the plug hole while both valves are closed on that cylinder, stuck the 1st HT lead into the position the rotor arm was facing, then 1342 firing order anti clockwise, and car would not start, then backfired! Yikes :\ Car ran before I took off cap and leads, don't remember the positions but they were almost certainly not the Cylinder 1 lead at 1 o'clock position on dizzy!!!
2) My car dies at low revs (i.e. dropping throttle when approaching lights) and I fear it may be my ignition adn coil, especially since my 3rd cylinder has a sooty plug whereas the others have brown/grey plugs. Therefore I'ma ssuming cylinder 3 isn't burning all the mixture. Combine this with the fact that I'm using 4 different HT leads (all probly different resistance) and you begin to see my problems!
I got 4 HT leads off a mazda today (very nice condition leads) and hooked them up as said in 1) but it wouldn't fire!
3) I got a Ducellier distributor from a MG Metro, which I thoroughly cleaned and it came out very nice looking! I've heard that these are pretty cack :\ Is it true?
4) My problems could also do with bad points/condenser (points gap is checked and fine), but I can't get those around here new!! :@ So what if that is the problem then I have to fit the Ducellier dizzy until my order from england comes in april where I can order some points + condenser for my Lucas dizzy.
5) What's involved in changing the dizzy. How do I ensure good timing when I fit it?
Cheers, ignition timing isn't my thing to be honest, and could do with some thorough help in this topic!
Changing Distributor
Started by
Pavel
, Jan 27 2005 06:50 PM
8 replies to this topic
#2
vasi
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Posted 27 January 2005 - 09:01 PM
1) a: Get a timing light and setup according to the haynes. B: Its a four stroke engine remember, therefore the crank will revolve twice (ie two "tdc's") for the distributor to revolve once, you may have connected that first lead to fire just after the exhaust stroke. Check that you have the tdc that occurs at the top of the compression stroke. Dont take any advice with regards to "this lead should be in this socket" because the distributor may well be fitted 180degrees out, like mine 
2) Trust no leads, even new ones should be checked for the correct resistance. Buy a multimeter, they're a cheap and invaluable tool. Haynes again will give you the correct values.
3) Theres unlikely to be anything fundamentally wrong with your Lucas one, unless there is excess play in the spindle you'd be as well to keep it.
4) Have the points got a relatively clean face? If not, reface them carefully with some fine gritpaper. Set the gap according to the, you guessed it, Haynes. Or even better buy a dwell angle meter, as this will give you a perfect points gap as it takes into account wear on the shaft.
5) See 3)
And finally, dont even think about messing with carburetion until you know everything is spot on with your ignition.
2) Trust no leads, even new ones should be checked for the correct resistance. Buy a multimeter, they're a cheap and invaluable tool. Haynes again will give you the correct values.
3) Theres unlikely to be anything fundamentally wrong with your Lucas one, unless there is excess play in the spindle you'd be as well to keep it.
4) Have the points got a relatively clean face? If not, reface them carefully with some fine gritpaper. Set the gap according to the, you guessed it, Haynes. Or even better buy a dwell angle meter, as this will give you a perfect points gap as it takes into account wear on the shaft.
5) See 3)
And finally, dont even think about messing with carburetion until you know everything is spot on with your ignition.
#3
Pavel
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Posted 27 January 2005 - 09:08 PM
Wasnt gonna mess with carburation. Mixture seems quite good (if a bit lean). Thanks vasi that helped.
Got a Haynes, got a multimeter, just wanted to get the 180 degrees thing cleared up.
So if the distributor is mounted 180 out, it doesnt matter really? As long as the leads are connected correctly?
Got a Haynes, got a multimeter, just wanted to get the 180 degrees thing cleared up.
So if the distributor is mounted 180 out, it doesnt matter really? As long as the leads are connected correctly?
#4
vasi
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Posted 27 January 2005 - 09:12 PM
Doesnt matter at all as far as I'm aware. I've had two other minis with dissys mounted that way around with no ill effects to speak of.
#5
Dan
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Posted 28 January 2005 - 11:59 AM
No it doesn't matter, as long as the leads are in the right order and long enough. It's just confusing for anyone else that works on your car, but it won't effect the running at all.
You'll need to get it running before you can use a timing light, so you'll need to set the static timing.
I'm not taking the p*** but #1 is the waterpump end just to make sure that we're reading off the same sheet.
If both the valves on #1 were closed when it was at TDC as you said then that is the right place in the cycle, but you don't time to TDC or it'll never run (there's no point in igniting the mixture when the piston is already moving down the bore). You need to time to about 8 degrees before that as a good static timing point. The timing marks are by the crank pully. There's a notch in the puley which is the timing point and a comb on the side of the front cover. Starting with the crank in compression tdc on #1 as you have found it, look at the marks. The timing mark should be lined up with the top spike on the comb.
If it isn't then the pulley outer has slipped round (or the cam is also 180 degrees out, but that's unlikely or the timing scale has been bent, if so then straighten it out) which is a bit of a problem. If that has happened then you need to really accurately set the tdc and make a new mark on the pulley outer which you can read at the top of the timing scale.
Anyway, when the marks in the right place slowly rotate the engine backwards so the mark moves down the scale. Each point of a tooth is 4 degrees round, so 8 degress btdc is the third spike. That's your static timing point. With the crank held there, release the dizzy clamp and rock the dizzy back and forth until you find a position where the points have just begun to open, (and make sure that they aren't just about to close, so that as the spindle turns anti clockwise from there they will open further) and re clamp the dizzy. Now put everything back together with #1 lead coming off where the rotor was pointing at, then round the cap anti clockwise 1342 and it should start.
But it is still timed wrong. The static position is only the start point to set the dizzy up, now you need the light to dynamically time it properly or it'll remain unhealthy and inefficient.
I think the Ducellier has a poor rep because parts are expensive and hard to find and it's tricky to tune up as you need a special tool to time it. I'd keep your Lucas one. If you need points and condenser that badly I can always grab some and stick them in the post for you.
You'll need to get it running before you can use a timing light, so you'll need to set the static timing.
I'm not taking the p*** but #1 is the waterpump end just to make sure that we're reading off the same sheet.
If both the valves on #1 were closed when it was at TDC as you said then that is the right place in the cycle, but you don't time to TDC or it'll never run (there's no point in igniting the mixture when the piston is already moving down the bore). You need to time to about 8 degrees before that as a good static timing point. The timing marks are by the crank pully. There's a notch in the puley which is the timing point and a comb on the side of the front cover. Starting with the crank in compression tdc on #1 as you have found it, look at the marks. The timing mark should be lined up with the top spike on the comb.
If it isn't then the pulley outer has slipped round (or the cam is also 180 degrees out, but that's unlikely or the timing scale has been bent, if so then straighten it out) which is a bit of a problem. If that has happened then you need to really accurately set the tdc and make a new mark on the pulley outer which you can read at the top of the timing scale.
Anyway, when the marks in the right place slowly rotate the engine backwards so the mark moves down the scale. Each point of a tooth is 4 degrees round, so 8 degress btdc is the third spike. That's your static timing point. With the crank held there, release the dizzy clamp and rock the dizzy back and forth until you find a position where the points have just begun to open, (and make sure that they aren't just about to close, so that as the spindle turns anti clockwise from there they will open further) and re clamp the dizzy. Now put everything back together with #1 lead coming off where the rotor was pointing at, then round the cap anti clockwise 1342 and it should start.
But it is still timed wrong. The static position is only the start point to set the dizzy up, now you need the light to dynamically time it properly or it'll remain unhealthy and inefficient.
I think the Ducellier has a poor rep because parts are expensive and hard to find and it's tricky to tune up as you need a special tool to time it. I'd keep your Lucas one. If you need points and condenser that badly I can always grab some and stick them in the post for you.
Edited by Dan, 28 January 2005 - 12:00 PM.
#6
Pavel
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Posted 28 January 2005 - 12:16 PM
Cheers dan, very helpful!
I can live with the current points and condenser.. Might actually stick the ducellier in and rebuild the lucas (since I don't use the car much now anyway...) and stick that in when my order arrives.
Gonna check the timing marks today see what everything's like
I can live with the current points and condenser.. Might actually stick the ducellier in and rebuild the lucas (since I don't use the car much now anyway...) and stick that in when my order arrives.
Gonna check the timing marks today see what everything's like
#7
dklawson
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Posted 28 January 2005 - 02:30 PM
I don't static time quite the way that Dan does and I hope he won't take offense.
I never turn the crank backwards while adjusting valves or setting timing. I always turn an engine the way it normally rotates to make sure no backlash or play in the drive mechanism affects the adjustments. Therefore, my technique is:
1) mark and pull all the spark plugs and put the gearbox in neutral so the engine is easy to turn.
2) take off valve cover to see #1 rockers (if necessary).
3) turn the engine over (using the crank pulley or by pulling on the fan belt), watching for when #1 rockers are both "up" (valves closed). #4 rockers will both be "down" (valves open). This will be near #1 TDC.
4) look at the timing marks on the crank pulley (or the flywheel on older cars), turn the engine backwards well past the timing mark you want (perhaps 30 degrees of crank rotation) THEN turn CW (the normal direction of rotation) until you JUST reach the desired timing mark.
(Somewhere close to the 8 degree mark as Dan stated... see Haynes).
5) remove dizzy cap and loosen clamp bolt(s).
6) connect a test lamp between coil (-) and ground (negative ground cars)
7) turn the ignition switch on and rotate the dizzy counter-clockwise slowly, going a little bit (10-15 degrees) PAST where the test lamp GOES DARK (test lamp off).
8) slowly, carefully, rotate the dizzy clockwise until the test lamp just TURNS ON.
9) stop and tighten the dizzy clamp bolt(s).
The dizzy rotor goes counter-clockwise (CCW). When static timing you need to first rotate the dizzy body CCW until you KNOW the points are well closed. Then slowly rotate the dizzy body CW until the points JUST open (test lamp on). You always need to turn the components in a direction that will take out all the play in the drive mechanism as they would experience in normal operation.
It is worth mentioning that you shouldn't waste your time setting the timing until you have set the points properly as mentioned above. Make sure the contacts are clean AND flat before attempting this. I don't wish to insult your intelligence, but make sure you adjust the point gap only when the contact points arm is resting on the high-spot of the dizzy cam. (Top point of one of the square lobes).
Which Lucas dizzy do you have, is this a 59? If Pertronix makes an ignitor module for your Lucas dizzy, I'd invest in that. Once you install it your timing will be steady and you won't have dwell and gap adjustments to make again, ever.
Regarding firing order, keep in mind as mentioned above that the dizzy rotor goes around CCW. Yes, the firing order is 1-3-4-2 and on most cars the #1 plug wire is on the top right dizzy cap position (when looking down on the dizzy from the front of the car). Therefore, #3 is essentially on the top left... #4 is on the bottom left, and #2 is on the bottom right. I've known quite a few people who put #1 in the right place but put the other wires back on clockwise instead of CCW. This makes #3 and #2 fire at the wrong time... backfiring while cranking.
As far as dieing at idle, I would suspect an idle speed adjustment of your carb is necessary. Ignition problems tend to make a car die- quickly. Slow stumbling failures are usually associated with fuel delivery problems. Failure of ignition components is usually more apparent the faster the engine is going, not slower. Condensers can cause a multitude of failure modes though and once you're sure the dwell/gap and timing are set properly, you can BRIEFLY test the condition of the condenser by disconnecting it. The condenser is in the system to eat voltage spike and prolong the life of the ignition points. Don't leave it off for a prolonged drive or your points will burn up. However, removing it for a short drive around the block may help you identify whether or not it's contributing to your running problems.
I never turn the crank backwards while adjusting valves or setting timing. I always turn an engine the way it normally rotates to make sure no backlash or play in the drive mechanism affects the adjustments. Therefore, my technique is:
1) mark and pull all the spark plugs and put the gearbox in neutral so the engine is easy to turn.
2) take off valve cover to see #1 rockers (if necessary).
3) turn the engine over (using the crank pulley or by pulling on the fan belt), watching for when #1 rockers are both "up" (valves closed). #4 rockers will both be "down" (valves open). This will be near #1 TDC.
4) look at the timing marks on the crank pulley (or the flywheel on older cars), turn the engine backwards well past the timing mark you want (perhaps 30 degrees of crank rotation) THEN turn CW (the normal direction of rotation) until you JUST reach the desired timing mark.
(Somewhere close to the 8 degree mark as Dan stated... see Haynes).
5) remove dizzy cap and loosen clamp bolt(s).
6) connect a test lamp between coil (-) and ground (negative ground cars)
7) turn the ignition switch on and rotate the dizzy counter-clockwise slowly, going a little bit (10-15 degrees) PAST where the test lamp GOES DARK (test lamp off).
8) slowly, carefully, rotate the dizzy clockwise until the test lamp just TURNS ON.
9) stop and tighten the dizzy clamp bolt(s).
The dizzy rotor goes counter-clockwise (CCW). When static timing you need to first rotate the dizzy body CCW until you KNOW the points are well closed. Then slowly rotate the dizzy body CW until the points JUST open (test lamp on). You always need to turn the components in a direction that will take out all the play in the drive mechanism as they would experience in normal operation.
It is worth mentioning that you shouldn't waste your time setting the timing until you have set the points properly as mentioned above. Make sure the contacts are clean AND flat before attempting this. I don't wish to insult your intelligence, but make sure you adjust the point gap only when the contact points arm is resting on the high-spot of the dizzy cam. (Top point of one of the square lobes).
Which Lucas dizzy do you have, is this a 59? If Pertronix makes an ignitor module for your Lucas dizzy, I'd invest in that. Once you install it your timing will be steady and you won't have dwell and gap adjustments to make again, ever.
Regarding firing order, keep in mind as mentioned above that the dizzy rotor goes around CCW. Yes, the firing order is 1-3-4-2 and on most cars the #1 plug wire is on the top right dizzy cap position (when looking down on the dizzy from the front of the car). Therefore, #3 is essentially on the top left... #4 is on the bottom left, and #2 is on the bottom right. I've known quite a few people who put #1 in the right place but put the other wires back on clockwise instead of CCW. This makes #3 and #2 fire at the wrong time... backfiring while cranking.
As far as dieing at idle, I would suspect an idle speed adjustment of your carb is necessary. Ignition problems tend to make a car die- quickly. Slow stumbling failures are usually associated with fuel delivery problems. Failure of ignition components is usually more apparent the faster the engine is going, not slower. Condensers can cause a multitude of failure modes though and once you're sure the dwell/gap and timing are set properly, you can BRIEFLY test the condition of the condenser by disconnecting it. The condenser is in the system to eat voltage spike and prolong the life of the ignition points. Don't leave it off for a prolonged drive or your points will burn up. However, removing it for a short drive around the block may help you identify whether or not it's contributing to your running problems.
#8
Dan
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Posted 28 January 2005 - 10:15 PM
Hey, I don't mind at all DK. I do the timing like this only because I always do dynamic timing immediately afterwards so it doesn't really matter about being accurate to that degree and I want it done fast, and the static setting is a bit vague on a Mini anyway. When it comes to the final timing I'm always a lot more precise.
The same Ignitor kits are under the name Aldon over here I think, but I don't know about Cyprus.
The same Ignitor kits are under the name Aldon over here I think, but I don't know about Cyprus.
#9
jonlad
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Posted 11 September 2021 - 12:26 PM
Hi folks
Sorry to resurrect and old thread but the instructions here are so good i thought it better than starting a new thread!
Both sets of instructions refer to moving dizzy so the points are just open or just closed; how do i do this with electronic ignition? Will the test lamp work on an electronic dizzy?
Is it possible to fo it another way, i.e. mark position of lead 1 on dizzy body and use that to align rotor arm?
Am i overthinking this?
Thanks all
Sorry to resurrect and old thread but the instructions here are so good i thought it better than starting a new thread!
Both sets of instructions refer to moving dizzy so the points are just open or just closed; how do i do this with electronic ignition? Will the test lamp work on an electronic dizzy?
Is it possible to fo it another way, i.e. mark position of lead 1 on dizzy body and use that to align rotor arm?
Am i overthinking this?
Thanks all
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