Hi All,
Posted 22 November 2014 - 06:29 PM
Hi All,
Posted 24 November 2014 - 08:27 AM
PS: I've moved this to the Motor Mouth Section, it should get more hits in there.
Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:38 PM
Sort of crosses over with the above but if I'm looking at one nowadays I tend to look at the components in the build and think whether I'll be able to get replacements in the future. I've come across this with the rear lights on the GTM as you can't get hold of them any more but there are other aspects where I've seen a kit built with some obscure part and thought that in 5 years time when it wears out or breaks it will be a major exercise to get a replacement or to re-engineer the car to use something more common.
Iain
Posted 27 November 2014 - 03:29 PM
Yes, I'd be doing similar if it was my project. A base kit that could be used as a stripped out racer, or have bodywork added to make it more practical - and spread build costs, allow you to at least get something on the road sooner.
See 5, something that's easily adapted and modified too. If you're building your own car you want a toe in the design office as well as on the factory floor.
Generally good, I'd still be wary of compromised ergonomics from using donor components in a different configuration.
If you were after a "vorsprung durch technik" style catchphrase, perhaps "sound, accessible, engineering". I.m sure there are still many who see a car as a means of transport, not the fashion statement or lifestyle choice the big brands try to sell us.
Posted 28 November 2014 - 06:48 AM
Hi All,
Im currently doing my final year major project at Uni (Transport Design) , and one of the projects I am doing is designing a kit car for 2025.
Like my parallel project in my other thread about cycling, I was wondering if you may be able to answer some of the questions below,
it would be really interesting and usefulto get the opinions from current kit car owners / enthusiasts.
Thanks
Sam
1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going?
The two things that hold it back (and this is more about what I think other people opinions are...) are styling and "the PlayStation generation" that want instant gratification
Excluding replicas, most kit cars have at least one awkward angle (as do lots of production models) but kit cars can be all-over awkward!!!
And I think people look at a good MR2 Roadster for £3k and think "why bother spending months building my own?"
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own?
3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on?
I would love to use a Seven for a daily. People use motorbikes all weathers (again not as much as they used to) so why not? There was a good thread on pistonheads from "c*ckwomble" about using a seven daily, snow the lot!
4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+
43
5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals?
Not really, as above MR2 comments
6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period?
7) What would you like to see on a new kit car?
8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations
Lazy!
Posted 28 November 2014 - 06:56 AM
Posted 28 November 2014 - 10:42 AM
There are kits other than Sevens out there - some with more carrying capacity than a Bora. Just because a Seven is a kit doesn't mean a kit is a Seven (and not even all Sevens are kit-cars in the strictest definition).
If you're building your own car you want a toe in the design office as well as on the factory floor.
I definitely agree with this one and my "kit" background has sort of embedded this in my experience. With a Robin Hood you need to do almost half the design work to get it on the road - it's a very different proposition to a Westfield where you can build it in a weekend if you know what you are doing around all the aspects of a car and buy all the bits in one go.
From memory the Sylva Striker and Stylus are on the same chassis and suspension and whilst they are both 2-seat sportscars they look very different. Platform technology is used by lots of manufacturers to make some very different cars that are a similar wheelbase and width so it strikes me that it's something the kit-car industry could easily adopt. It might also make the testing process easier if a couple of manufacturers got together and based their cars around a single chassis rather than one manufacturer having to do all the legwork.
Possibly getting off topic but maybe some useful stuff for the project since it's based around a future situation.
Iain
Posted 28 November 2014 - 01:47 PM
Posted 29 November 2014 - 12:22 AM
There are kits other than Sevens out there - some with more carrying capacity than a Bora. Just because a Seven is a kit doesn't mean a kit is a Seven (and not even all Sevens are kit-cars in the strictest definition).
Iain
Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:21 AM
But even a Phaeton is a LSIS (Lotus Seven Inspired Sportscar) and MJWJ's comments just bear out what I've said about people assuming kit-car means an LSIS.
My GTM would be perfectly good as a daily driver with the rider that it's small so you can feel vulnerable mixing it with trucks but then the same would go for a Smart Roadster or maybe a Mini (although a Mini is taller so a bit more visible). Same would go for a Rossa, Libra or Spider.
NCF Diamond - nearly as big as a Range Rover and proper roof and doors so quite useable as a daily driver.
Phantom Vortex (or Vortex GTT as it's now become). Similar in concept to the GTM but bigger.
Quantum Coupe - practically a family hatchback.
Ginetta G32 - drool.
Ginetta G30 - not so pretty but no reason a good one couldn't be a daily driver.
You can get a hatchback for a Cobra........
MEVX5 - OK body conversion rather than a kit-car but it'll get you several hundred miles on a tank of fuel in comfort and dry with a heater and if you picked the right donor air-con.
Fit and finish is usually far more to do with the builder than the manufacturer and it's usually where the builder has the most input. Just how much equipment and creature comforts you want are a matter of taste, skill and budget. On the budget front the plus side is that it's far easier to spread the cost by fitting a bare minimum in the original build and then adding tweaks later. If someone is starting out on a build my recommendation is ALWAYS build basic to begin and get the thing on the road. Once you've driven it for a while you can start making changes because both the enthusiasm level and the budget have had the time to recover and you've had a chance to see what it's like in the real world and decide on what alterations are really needed.
And don't ever expect to get all your money back. Just like re-building a Mini it's occasionally possible but more often than not it would have worked out cheaper to go and buy one that someone has already done. Buying ready built though means you need to accept someone else's choices, be confident in their work and the money although slightly less is all needed in one hit.
Getting really off-topic now - Sorry.
Iain
Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:03 AM
Posted 02 December 2014 - 05:47 PM
So a kit-car equals leaks and rattles? Like I said the quality depends on the builder and mentioning a Kia proves the point - have you SEEN how badly they are put together? I've seen them described as an insult to the buyer and if I'd paid out my hard earned for some of the rubbish they punt I'd certainly feel insulted.
An MEVX5 uses the original Mazda seals so there's no reason to think it should leak as they are excellent when in good order. The doors are the originals as is the bonnet so no reason it should rattle either. As for fuel efficiency - I know exactly how much fuel mine uses and it's not that much worse than my diesel daily on my motorway commute (petrol being cheaper it's borderline on price). With an MEV kit it'll also be a lot lighter than a standard MX5 so performance and economy will be better than standard (OK they aren't light-up-the-sky fast by modern standards). Personally I think they look good but then that's a matter of opinion and could count equally with a production car.
As for a production car doing the job cheaper - if "doing the job" means getting you from A-B then yes it might but then a Ka or 106/Saxo will probably do the job that a Mini will do and work out cheaper but still there are people here. With the high end kits you are looking at performance and handling that will put the best efforts of the supercar manufacturers to shame and whilst it's not instant gratification since you will need to build it the price tag is several orders of magnitude less and as I said not all in one hit. I think it's still a "kit-car" that holds the record for going from zero to a hundred and back again with the Veyron at more than 10 times the price in second position in the record books and Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Ascari etc. were in the category "also ran".
I would go so far as to suggest that at almost every price point a kit will get you more "bang for buck" than an equally priced production car. I wouldn't suggest an NCF Diamond is in any way equivalent to a Discovery so it's a bit of a silly comparison to try and make.
There are of course anomalies and exceptions like the Scooby Impreza which can be had for Mondeo money (or less) nowadays. But then why doesn't everyone who wants a fast car go out and buy an Impreza rather than a Boxster or an RS6?
My point is that it's horses for courses but I think a lot of people do dismiss kits or don't even consider them as they just think kit-car equals Seven or rough-as-a-badgers-backside build quality and that's far from the case.
Iain
Posted 02 December 2014 - 06:22 PM
But even a Phaeton is a LSIS (Lotus Seven Inspired Sportscar) and MJWJ's comments just bear out what I've said about people assuming kit-car means an LSIS.
My comments were based on my experiences owning a kit car chassis. I am fully aware that there are other kit cars out there like a GTM Rossa and replica cars such as a Lamborghini Gallardo built from a Toyota Mr2 which are not sevenesque.
To expand a bit on my answer I gave. I believe that if you start adding the cost of doors, roof, windscreen then the cost starts to make them prohibitive as an option as a daily driver. Some people will pay the money and use them but for others the cost of the kit will turn them away and they will just buy a pre built fast saloon car or hot hatch which will be more practical. Some of the kits for the replica Lambos are £20,000. There are a lot of other fast pre built cars you can buy with that sort of money and which will be much better as they will not be based on an old Toyota MR2. This is just one example but I think it illustrates my point.
Another issue is that most of the kits out there, that are of cars with doors, roofs and windscreens in them are replicas of fairly impractical cars to begin with. A replica Testarossa still has the same visibility, lack of storage space and low ground clearance as an original Testarossa meaning it will also not be a very good daily drive.
Posted 03 December 2014 - 12:37 PM
Kits aren't all "wish-it-was" replicas either. I'm not a fan of the pretend Ferraris as their underpinnings never manage to match their looks (although even those never really manage to be right because the proportions usually need to be messed with to get them to fit the chassis used).
GTM's don't only come in Rossa flavour either.
Recently £6k would have got you a well sorted GTM Libra. Nearest equivalent production car I would suggest is an Elise (but I'd rank the Libra as more practical) and anything under twice that price in an Elise is likely to be one with issues. You don't need to be talking telephone numbers to get a serious performance car with a proper roof and doors that would be perfectly happy on the daily commute.
The Ultima that set the 0-100-0 record drove itself to the test and went through a McD's drivethrough on the way there. OK it costs more than the outstanding mortgage on my house but like-for-like it's in the league of the very fastest of the supercars which will cost the sort of money that would buy half my street. There's a lot to be had before you get to that level though.
Iain
Posted 03 December 2014 - 01:25 PM
1) Whats your opinion on the current kit car industry? wheres it going? Apart from a very select few, pretty crap. People expect high standards these days with function, fit and finish and 99% of kit cars still fall short on this. So many new kits are trying to be cheap versions of Astons, Ferraris etc and they all fal I can see it dying a slow and painful death in the next 10yrs.
2) What kit car(s) do you currently own, or would like to own? None but would love a Z-Cars MonteBusa!3) Can a kit car be used as a daily? - how do people get on? I would say so, yes. Provided you can put up with high levels of NVH and without the mod cons of computerised onboard infotainment.4) what age range and gender are you? (if you don't mind) 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 51-60, 60+ Im 23 and male5) A more versatile practical daily kit car - is this something that appeals? Well built, to modern manufacturer standards, yes!6) When your car is used - what sort of mileage is done in that time period? Dont own a kit car7) What would you like to see on a new kit car? Technology. iPhone/smartphone integration, Android style infotainment systems to customise etc8) Three words to sum up your kit car expectations Really badly built
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