Both authors come to much the same sort of conclusions about Issigonis's career. In a nutshell it is this: the Mini concept that "Issy" created for his beloved British Motor Corporation (BMC) in 1959 was technically brilliant, as was the 1100 and even the ungainly 1800 that followed them. The problem was that the cars were expensive to make, had too many niggling faults that led to costly warranty claims and made little, if any, profit.
But the company was in profit at the end of the 1960's!
It was the 1970's rubbish years that caused things to go terribly wrong!
will have to look into that one before commenting further
Both authors come to much the same sort of conclusions about Issigonis's career. In a nutshell it is this: the Mini concept that "Issy" created for his beloved British Motor Corporation (BMC) in 1959 was technically brilliant, as was the 1100 and even the ungainly 1800 that followed them. The problem was that the cars were expensive to make, had too many niggling faults that led to costly warranty claims and made little, if any, profit.
But the company was in profit at the end of the 1960's!
It was the 1970's rubbish years that caused things to go terribly wrong!
will have to look into that one before commenting further
Well those were the exact words that Alex Moulton spoke at the 2006 Issigonis Centenary Celebrations at Gaydon and it wasn't only Mini fans who were in attendance in that conference room.
if it was sold as a "rover mini" i dont think it would of done that well, but if it was sold, as BMW have as a standalone company, it might have done quite well! but thats what me thinks!
It still would have been seen as a replacement Metro though and not a proper Mini.
lol, i can see where your coming from, and i agree with you 100% as it isnt "mini" anymore, but rover was out, believe it or not, to make money, so they wouldnt give 2 *poops* about the heritage, especially after that bloke took over, john edwards was it? i really cant remember his name! he was just out for himself!
Graham Day wasn't and he could see great potential in the Mini and that's why it lived past 1987.
But Rover were more interested in developing the Metro or Rover 100 as it became and they'd be just as likely to bring back the Austin Maxi, than develop and launch a new type Mini.
Graham Day wasn't and he could see great potential in the Mini and that's why it lived past 1987.
But Rover were more interested in developing the Metro or Rover 100 as it became and they'd be just as likely to bring back the Austin Maxi, than develop and launch a new type Mini.
prob a stupid question, but i was only 10 when the mini was stopped being made! before i was even thinking of driving lol, still liked cars though, done some reading on it, but havent heard of him! was he still with rover in 2000 then, or while the MINI was being deisgned?
No I believe he left Rover some time during the early 1990's.
But it was thanks to him that the Mini didn't die in the mid 1980's and he helped see it's profile raised, launched in countries like Japan who went mad for them and no doubt helped see the Cooper name return.
thats a really good video! i hope that bloke didnt have repetative strain injuries from putting steering wheels on for 30 years! but on a serious note, "they all take pride in their work" and so they should!
This may help the point that he would not like the new mini, due to him knowing what is best..
On the production line (i have this from the lips of ex-BL\BMC employees) his name was Alec ARAGonis....due to him being very stubborn and thinking he always knew best. I think it still safe to make the assumption he would not of liked the new mini.
For god sake look, there was a recent radio broadcast (a 12 month or so back) about Issigonis and his inventions and being interviewed was Alex Moulton and Lord Snowdon.
Moulton knew how Issigonis thought all too well and he stated on air how he'd hate it that a German company now controlled the Mini, because Issigonis categorically hated the Germans! Plus he'd hate the BINI as it's far too big, doesn't make good use of it's internal space and apart from that it's nothing special.
If you can't see what a revolutionary concept the original Mini was and how it changed the world of motoring forever, then you really shouldn't be posting here.
If all you want to do is drool on about the BINI, then perhaps MINI2.com would be a better place to hang out where you'd find more like minded individuals who are brainwashed by the might that is BMW!
Er... touched a nerve? I'm not brainwashed by BMW thank you very much, it's quite depressing that you'd rather a classic Mini owner was somewhere else and not here on TMF.
All I'm trying to say here is time changes a man (or woman), and nobody can decree what they may or may not have done. No matter how adamant they may have previously been. Just how you argue what Issigonis would have thought, the man I mentioned George French, he was so die hard in his refusal to make a cassette hub. People change.
One day in the future when technology advances and cloning/re-animation is possible we'll all find out what he would actually think, rather than sit around and speculate.
The only thing I'd rather is that we could all appreciate the classic Mini and not have people feel obliged to ram BMW and it's BINI down everyone's throats?
Issigonis took his views to his death and I'm sure even if he was reanimated, those views would be unchanged.
So if people like the BINI then great, but don't give us people who prefer the original Issigonis Mini a hard time.
I'm not giving anyone a hard time at all. You're making it into a hard time.
I bloody well appreciate the classic Mini, and I'm sorry if you don't see that. The reason I don't go shouting about it is because the fact that I'm on here signifies that. If each and every member on here had a topic entitled, "I love the classic Mini, let's all discuss our love for it!", this place would be pretty boring, and I for one wouldn't have signed up.
Myself and Mab don't go around starting topics about the New MINI on here, other people do. So if you want this place New MINI free then just ignore these threads. You come in here two footed defending your honour, when there's nothing to defend. Personally I'd prefer it if topics like these got moved to General Chat just like topics about any other car. I don't want to drag this topic any more OT but I whole-heartedly agree that this forum is about the classic Mini, and not the New MINI, whether they are the same brand or related is not under question. There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy banter, nor conversation. If people are starting threads then they obviously want to talk about it.
For god sake look, there was a recent radio broadcast (a 12 month or so back) about Issigonis and his inventions and being interviewed was Alex Moulton and Lord Snowdon.
Moulton knew how Issigonis thought all too well and he stated on air how he'd hate it that a German company now controlled the Mini, because Issigonis categorically hated the Germans! Plus he'd hate the BINI as it's far too big, doesn't make good use of it's internal space and apart from that it's nothing special.
If you can't see what a revolutionary concept the original Mini was and how it changed the world of motoring forever, then you really shouldn't be posting here.
If all you want to do is drool on about the BINI, then perhaps MINI2.com would be a better place to hang out where you'd find more like minded individuals who are brainwashed by the might that is BMW!
Er... touched a nerve? I'm not brainwashed by BMW thank you very much, it's quite depressing that you'd rather a classic Mini owner was somewhere else and not here on TMF.
All I'm trying to say here is time changes a man (or woman), and nobody can decree what they may or may not have done. No matter how adamant they may have previously been. Just how you argue what Issigonis would have thought, the man I mentioned George French, he was so die hard in his refusal to make a cassette hub. People change.
One day in the future when technology advances and cloning/re-animation is possible we'll all find out what he would actually think, rather than sit around and speculate.
Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion so far (even if we are bit off the original topic) and whichever side you are coming from!
It is perfectly possible for some of us on here to "see what a revolutionary concept the original Mini was and how it changed the world of motoring forever" but still have a balanced unblinkered view of the new MINI and it's position in a completely different world of motoring today, without us being "traitors" or suddenly becoming unable to appreciate the iconic status of the classic original Mini.
All cars (even the classic Mini) are not perfect and have their faults or become outdated, if anyone can't accept this then surely they are the one who has been been brainwashed. This does not stop us as enthusiasts from liking the Mini with all its faults or change the classic Mini's place in motoring history.
As Nurseholliday has put very well, none of us can ever know for sure what Issigonis might think today....................but if if by some miracle of cloning/re-animation he were to feature in a video on YouTube I,m sure if he did not say the right thing, some on here would suddenly dismiss his opinion rather like they did when I found John Coopers comments on the new MINI on video recently. The respect for John Cooper from some quickly changed to "he sold out for money to BMW." (Anorak, however, was very interested in JC's comments even though he did not necessarily agree with what he said), apologies to those that have seen it before :
Quote from John Cooper himself at the preview launch of the new Rover MINI Cooper in 1997, as seen in the video interview:-
"I think its great (new MINI), its a Mini and its going to be the new MINI, its got a wheel in each corner, it looks like a Mini, I know its a little bigger and its had to be modified slightly for the safety regulations and that sort of thing but I think the team at Rovers have done a wonderful job on it actually and I'm very proud and I'm sure Issigonis in the 21st century would have been very proud of it if he had seen it." John Cooper 1997
Other points which come to mind from some previous posts:
Issigonis I think dis-liked anything to do with Germany because of his early experiences of war in Turkey (I have read the biographies) but we should not carry this outlook on into future generations? In the same way my late father hated the Germans because of the effect two world wars had on his life but it would be wrong for me to carry on that as a family tradition. Anyone interested in engineering or cars has to acknowledge the worldwide German reputation for quality and reliability.
In the letter posted by Anorak I note Issigonis says "to change the Mini body shape would be fatal as it is known worldwide, to do so would make it just another car." Is that not what exactly BMW eventually convinced Rover to do as far as possible with the new MINI.....................even copyrighting the Mini shape?
Without access to BMW's Worldwide established Dealer network, especially in the USA it would have been impossible for Rover to have made the new MINI a worldwide success........as happened with all previous recent attempts by Rover to sell cars in markets like the US.
I sent a letter in the late 1980's to Graham Day at Austin-Rover asking him to consider re-introducing the Mini Cooper using the 1275 MG Metro engine..................to my surprise he actually replied and said he would ask his engineers to evaluate and see if it were possible! (I will dig it out my archive and if I can find it, scan and post it).
I think the high number of views of this thread (2000+) and others show that even though we are mainly classic Mini enthusiasts we still have a healthy interest in what is going on in the new MINI world, no harm in that and if anyone thinks such discussions are boring or inappropriate then don't join in or start them.................
