17 replies to this topic

[bandit]

hello
i have a k reg cooper that needs reshelling and have purhased a 90/91 shell some time ago both are in the back of my garage with a load of junk infront,
i have been talking to a chap who tells me that the shells are diff as one will be a carb and the other a inject engine

so the question is....is this correct?????

......and if it is so what are the differences???

i have noticed that the inner wing rad/fan vents are diff will this be a problem or is it just diff shape vents??

cheers

[Dan]

There are few major differences between those two shells, nothing hard to get around. Mostly it's down to different brackets, although there is a large hole for the auxiliary cooling fan which may or may not be present on the '91 shell depending on exactly what model it came from. Do you realise this re-shell will mean you car has to be re-registered and tested, probably becoming a Q reg as a result?

[alicetheauto]

Does the 90/91 shell have subframes and suspension? If so you *might* be able to make enough points to call it a restoration of the 90/91 car (if you can find its VIN plate or reg) and then transfer the engine from your existing car. However it would obviously have the reg of the 90/91 car, and you would do best to either keep your current car as a serious welding project or sell it as a project.
If the 90/91 shell is literally bare shell then it is either q-plate it or use it for parts only, legally.

[cobblers]

You have two "easy" options. Neither are legit, one is more legit than the other

You could just swap all the ID over onto the 90/91 shell and pretend its the cooper. This is technically "ringing" the car, but its more commonplace than you'd think. I personally wouldn't do this.

I'd just build all the stuff onto the 90/91 shell and retain the ID of the shell. The suspension is off a different car, but its the same design so classes as a standard replacement so this way is technically legit.

[bandit]

the shell has all the subframes on it only really needs doors, boot, bonnet, interior, engine and other little bits n bobs

the shell is mint, cant see any rust anywhere the nuderside of floor has been sealed has a body kit (not fitted properly yet)on it but thinking of removing that

not sure which way to go yet, i alsoo had a 1970 mini years ago that was beyond repair so stripped it and still have book for that along with most parts


cheers

[Dan]

None of that is accurate!

Firstly, the points system applies to kit conversions not restorations.

To retain the identity of a shell in a restoration you need two major assemblies from that shell (there are no points applied) along with it and ideally no second hand parts. Two bare subframes count as one assembly, they form the chassis of the vehicle. If the subframes are built up there would be enough parts to count as still being the '91 car.

The suspension you use ONLY counts as original to the identity if it was originally fitted to the car in question or is brand new, being of the same design is irrelevant. Anything can only count as standard replacement if it is brand new and unused. Any second hand parts used water down the originality of the vehicle. This applies to all of our cars. There is no real way however to identify what parts were fitted to what car if they are of the same specification because every single part does not have a serial number. This makes it impossible to tell the difference really but certainly doesn't make it technically legitimate, it is technically completely illegal to rebuild the car in that way!

The only real chance you have of making a car with any residual value is to rebuild the '91 shell as the original '91 car and fit the later parts to it, remaining as close to the '91 spec as you can wherever possible. This will give you a useable car but still isn't completely legal. What were you planning to do about the VIN? You can swap over the plate on the wing but getting rid of the stamped VIN isn't that easy. The lack of a stamped VIN where it's supposed to be will always cause you a problem if you come to sell the car or if it ever has to be inspected for its identity at any time.

The only completely legal option would be to rebuild the K reg shell piece by piece or buy a brand new replacement for it. The second hand shell you have has no value as a road car unless you have enough original parts from that shell to return it to its original identity. Other than that it can only ever become a Q reg or a race car. Or if you can get together enough parts that you can prove are of the same age you might be able to put it together on an age related non-transferable plate but generally once a shell has an identity, it's stuck with it.

[bandit]

to be honest not really bothered about resale value, i was going to remove numbers and put the free tax one on it , lol

might just get rid of the lot and buy a 60's one

[cobblers]

Dan, interesting. I got my info from a chap (aceadvice on a few forums) who is working with the DVLA over the IVA/SVA issues and points system. The general concensus was that suspension wise, a lot of stuff is a "wearable part" and as long as the design is the same, OE/Pattern/2nd hand parts all classed the same. I gave him the example of my old 106, on which EVERY moving part had been replaced with new/recon/better condition 2nd hand kit.

He said it is sort of a grey area, but that the car should really retain its identity. He is working with the DVLA to try and get the issue clarified, because the DVLA themselves aren't really even sure where they stand on it.

[Cooperman]

If re-shelling doesn't happen there are going to be some Mk 1 Cooper 'S's scrapped. I know of 2 where re-shelling into 2nd hand Mk 1 shells is happening at the moment as the owners really have no alternative. One is a rally car which was badly damaged in a competition accident. If not rebuilt back to original form it will no longer be eligible for competition as a Mk 4 'Heritage' shell is not acceptable for Historic Motor-sport as a pe-'67 car (pre-65 for International events).
So far as I'm aware, the Mk 1 shell has no body number stamped into it, just the VIN plate, so there is never any problem.
On later cars with the VIN no stamped into the screen scuttle panel, when the screen scuttle panel is changed due to rust the VIN No. is lost anyway.
DVLA can only police what is policeable in the real world. Personally I don't believe a shell change reates a 'ringer'. It creates a restored car so long as there is no intention to deceive.
Just another thought, what happens if you build a 'new' shell from all new Heritage panels. A friend of mine has a jig and is currently building an 'all-new' pick-up shell from new parts. Is this a new shell under the legislation? I may build a new saloon Mk 1 shell using his jig for a 1967 Mini 850 I am shortly buying.

[bmcecosse]

A 'new' shell is a new shell! No matter who builds it - as long as it hasn't previously been registered as a road-going vehicle I can't see a problem. and no need to tell DVLA anyway! As for using the 90/91 shell - I know what I would do! Free tax is well worth having - just make the car look as original as possible - so changing that inner wing to the old design - and possibly renewing the scuttle panel could be a good idea. And keeping it on original 10" wheels of course. It may not be completely 'legit' - but where's the harm in it ? Worse things happen on the way to the Forum ! (Not this Forum of course!)

[Dan]

On later cars with the VIN no stamped into the screen scuttle panel, when the screen scuttle panel is changed due to rust the VIN No. is lost anyway.

Legally, if the panel bearing the stamped VIN is replaced the car must be presented at a DVLA / VOSA inspection centre for a VIC check and have the number stamped into the new panel or a new VIN assigned. The same applies to a new shell. Also a new shell is only classed as a new shell if made to original specification by the original manufacturer. Heritage does count as the original manufacturer. Since Heritage don't make enough parts to be able to produce a pickup shell I imagine it's being made with M-Machine panels. It will be fine to build a shell like that and present the car for an SVA (or the new test) but it won't count as a direct replacement.

There are no real grey areas, all the rules are written down. Just because the person you speak to at the DVLA is on work experience or was sent there from the Job Center that morning doesn't mean the rules don't exist. There is currently a problem with finding out what is law and what isn't, partly because the government insist on using the Direct Gov website for everything (which is rubbish and has many errors) and partly because VOSA are trying to make a name for themselves. They have suddenly in the last 3 or 4 years started claiming resposibility for all sorts of things and have suddenly realised that there are things they are meant to be doing that have been ignored for decades. It's a mess. As I said above, there is no real way to identify what parts have been fitted to what car in the past so it is all largely irrelevant anyway.

One thing I can't stand though is a logbook rebuild to claim historic tax status. It's incredibly dishonest, helps the government in their quest to get us all paying road tax again and harms the efforts to reinstate the rolling historic class. It usually results in the destruction of one or two good condition later cars just for the sake of avoiding tax as though the later cars aren't worth preserving. People who do it are guilty of several counts of fraud and tax evasion so as well as getting their cars crushed they deserve jail. Its precisely because intent in this matter can't be proven that the entire thing has been made illegal. The fraudsters have, as ever, ruined it for everyone else.

[midridge2]

Legally, if the panel bearing the stamped VIN is replaced the car must be presented at a DVLA / VOSA inspection centre for a VIC check and have the number stamped into the new panel or a new VIN assigned.
dan, can you show us a link to a website stating this information?

[Guess-Works.com]

Why does it being a mini make it any different to any other car of any age....

If you were presented with a car which was obviously a different car to that which it stated on the V5 wouldn't you be suspicious...

As for the remark about a MK1 historic rally car, surely this is the risk you take running a historic vehicle, if you bend it so much that it's beyond repair, then that's the end if it's life... where's the 'historic' value in a mini which is not what it reports to be...

Yes, reshelling, is a all too common occurrence... but all you are doing by participating in the practice is devaluing the true heritage of the Mini, as a whole. I'd rather see a Q plate on a mini, at least then it shows that the person has rebuilt a vehicle to a standard which VOSA are happy with..

My Rant over and done with.

[Dan]

dan, can you show us a link to a website stating this information?

I'll see if I can dig one up. It has been linked to from the fourm before which is where I learned about it and it shocked me a bit at the time but it does make sense. It's one of the many things that VOSA are meant to have been enforcing for the last 30 years but haven't bothered and now that they've been brought into the new millenium by the computerised MOT and other new technology they are making a fuss about it.

[midridge2]

it must be recent as all the cars i have repaired over the years were a panel was replaced that had a vin number stamped in were never restamped.
these were main dealer bodyshops doing insurance work.