14 replies to this topic

[theoldmini]

What are your thoughts and ideas etc re re-shells
I am looking to buy a tax exempt mini in the very near future.
I have looked on the usual sites etc and notice that there are some that have been re-shelled.
Some do not have the original engine.
How would I stand if I bought one like this.
Is it still a tax exempt etc
Thanks

[Boycie]

A real hot potato of an issue...!

But.. as far as the law goes, if the bodyshell is not the original OR a brand-new (heritage) replacement item, with receipt/ proof then the vehicle loses it's tax exempt status and orignal registration mark and is given a 'Q' plate- signifying a vehicle of indeterminable age.

Lots and lots of Minis and Land Rovers running around with later second-hand shells, which is fine until VOSA/ DVLA etc do a spot check (which has been known at gatherings..) and the owner gets a letter in the post..

Many people argue about this, but those are the facts. The issue is slightly confused by the fact that in years gone by, when no chassis number was stamped on the shells (pre 1980 in the Mini's case), you could swap body shells with no legal implications, unless of course the car was stolen.

Also, many folk claim that all 1970 onwards (mk3) shells are the same.. this is simply not the case. I can spot a fake a mile off, the floor is totally different, as is the dash crossmember, the subframe mounting points etc etc.

[Yoda]

So has anyone actually listed what the differences are in the shells. This would be a good source of info for people wanting to check cars before buying and finding out too late that it is a ringer!

[Boycie]

Yup, I did a long post with pictures- I'll see if it still exists..

[Boycie]

http://www.theminifo...howtopic=121308

Here it is.

[mini-man-dan]

Just look at the roof gutter. If there is a cut into it directly above the seam strips its a later shell, if it has little U shaped holes in a complete drip rail it's a genuine shell

[Yoda]

http://www.theminifo...howtopic=121308

Here it is.

Brilliant.

I have several projects to start and this has helped identify a few. However, I now wonder if there is a definitive guide for the later models, ie what year was the bulkhead changed to suit the new style heater ( two oval holes on the same side for the hoses etc ) I know this will open up a can of worms, but how will we know if a car that has been a victim of the recent scrappage scheme has been allocated the vin and docs from a rusty shell ? etc etc etc.

[In-a-mini]

my pre 1980 car still had a chassis number this was located in the boot lid recess top to one side?

Edited by In-a-mini, 08 June 2010 - 06:53 PM.

[bmcecosse]

Best bet - buy an old tax-exempt Mini (doesn't matter what shell is on it, since you will scrap it anyway!) - and put a NEW Heritage shell on it yourself! Protect that new shell properly - and the car will last 'for ever' . They can't argue about a NEW shell - but may ask to see the receipt for it. In theory of course - you should use virtually ALL the other parts from the old car such as subframes etc. But 10 seconds after you have finished - there is nothing to stop you upgrading the car by fitting new/different parts if you wish.

Edited by bmcecosse, 08 June 2010 - 07:53 PM.

[Cooperman]

AFAIK the regulation regarding re-shelling is nor retrospective. So if the re-shelling into another 2nd hand shell was done years ago there is no issue with this.
Many Mk 1 cars have been re-shelled at some time into other 2nd hand shells and no doubt this will just continue, but the Mk 1 & 2 would be hard to spot with a proper replacement fully restored shell. If restoring a MK 1 or MK 2 you can't use a Heritage shell as the front subframe simply won't fit. The floor (for gear linkage) is different as are lots of other panels.
The whole issue is contentious as if you replace the scuttle panle on a later car, you lose the body number stamped into it. I've been doing exactly that this week. I spoke to my MoT guy who said that all you must do is to get a set of number stamps and stamp the number into the new scuttle panel and he could see no reason why this would not be legal, as it's the correct number for that shell. He said no MoT station would check further as many late Minis have replacement scuttle panels in order to pass the MoT. He also said that if a fully restored Mk 1 or 2 was presented for Mot he would not seek to see if the shell was not original as it's too difficult. He would inspect the body plate and check the numbers against the V5. It the numbers matched he would just do the appropriate MoT for that year of vehicle in respect of emissions.
Now, a Mk3 onwards shell with, say, a 1962 number plate and a tax-exempt tax disc will look suspicious to testers and to others, as it would be seen not to be original. That's when the trouble will start.

Edited by Cooperman, 08 June 2010 - 08:59 PM.

[Boycie]

Yup agreed with all that Cooperman, as the MoT is of no concern whatsoever to the heritage of the car/ shell. As you said, the tester will merely check to see if there's a chassis number that matches up with the details on his screen.

It's VOSA/ DVLA which present the greatest threat to those running around with 'bitza' cars.. and then only if they can prove the shell should be on something else.

I would urge all those who have an apparently tax exempt Mini to remove the bonnet and see if theres a VIN number stamped in the guttering under the windscreen, nearly in the middle. It can be difficult to read, but I'd bet that it doesn't match the rivetted-on VIN attatched to the front panel because, as said, gutter stamping only started in 1980ish!

I did the original post with the photos because lots of people nowadays are paying very strong money for apparently pre-1973 cars, when all along they're buying an 80s/90s Mk4 'shell with a tax exempt logbook, for much more than the car is really worth!!

It's unfortunate that the provenance of early Mk3's is so commonly discarded, they early ones really were just 'updated' Mk2's, my 1970 car has Mk2 switchgear and interior etc.. along with the new-fangled wind up windows and interior door hinges (oh the luxury !)

[Cooperman]

The problem is not the real enthusiast who may keep his early Mk 1 on the road by swapping to a similar year/model 2nd hand shell which will never be inspected as it won't be obvious or cause suspicion. It's the guy who wants to avoid road tax and uses, say, a 1965 log book on a 1995 car. This is just so obviously a tax-evasion exercise that the owner(s) deserve to be caught out. A Mk 1 & Mk 2 has external door hinges. Any without are not genuine cars, and that includes those with heritage shells, as the configuration of front sub-frame is also different, as is almost everything else.

[aceadvice]

AFAIK the regulation regarding re-shelling is nor retrospective. So if the re-shelling into another 2nd hand shell was done years ago there is no issue with this.

Regretably not true, an illegal reshell is an illegal reshell. We've just dealt with someone who has a car where it was reshelled ( illegally) 14 years ago .Due to be able to prove when it took place ( full MSA history) he received a Q plate wth NO BIVA. The best you can hope for if discovered with an illegal reshell is proof of when this took place ( hopefully prior to '98 when SVA was introduced ) as thii would allow a Q to be issued as well. Tracing the newly discovered VIN number back to its reg number and the seeing when that was declared scarp /last taxed should hopefully be enough.

Strangely if the illegal shell had kept its original number and the engine and box swapped over ( from the pretend reg) then the car would have remained legal as the link of reg to vin would not have been broken.

Likewise a Heritage reshell should be reported to DVLA and a receipt produced for the new shell ( I'm presuming that Heritage ARE seen as agents /approved by OEM ?) and they would note this in their records and would normally issue a Local Office new VIN number .

[BaronG]

A newbie digging up an old post.... And not sure I'm going to like the answer!

I have a mini with a 1962 registration, a 1971 shell and an early 90s engine. It was purchased as "road legal" and i have been running it as such, sadly probably in ignorance. I can get my hands on the original plates that went with the 71 shell and would be happy to move to the later registration, but of it sure if this is possible / legal.

If there's no way through this, I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed I don't get found out. Perhaps put some earlier features on the car (boot, lights, grille, hinges etc) to assist.

Any useful advice (I can do without the unhelpful comments) would be appreciated. I'm happy to pay what's due, I'm not a tax dodger and just want to be doing the right thing having made a mistake purchasing in the first place.

[tiger99]

It depends on whether DVLA were informed of the changed shell by the previous owner in 1971. If they were, under the rules which applied then, the shell is ok. Otherwise, as you suggest, the 1971 car needs to "reappear" and the 1962 one needs to "disappear", but how would you get a certificate of destruction, or whatever it is called, without actually scrapping a Mini shell? I suppose the imaginary 1962 shell could go on permanent SORN. I don't think anyone would check that it was real.

 

So basically you just need to put the 1971 car back on the road after a long absence, as far as DVLA are concerned, but they might slap a fine on you for not declaring SORN. You  can explain that it had been lying forgotten in a shed somewhere since long before SORN was introduced, and you have just bought it, it might work.

 

The engine is not so much of a problem, as you can just notify DVLA of an engine swap at any time, and that would be done at the same time that the car, in theory, goes back on the road. You will of course need a fresh MOT, on the 1971 registration number and VIN, and insurance, before it goes back on the road. The insurance company only need to know that you have changed the car, and the new spec and registration number.

 

If you hace two addresses that you can operate from (parents, for instance), it would be an idea to register the 1971 car at a different address to the 1962 car, which will be different to where the 1971 car was last legally registered, so that there is no chance of DVLA connecting the two.

 

Ordinarily I would not suggest trying to work around the law, but sometimes in cases like this, not of your own making, it might be the best way forward.

 

Or, you could tell the DVLA that it all happened long before you owned the car, and ask them to sort it out, based on the rules at the time. If you speak to someone sympathetic, it should be ok. But some pedantic little moron may take the opposite view.....

 

Whatever you do, good luck!