19 replies to this topic

[giner88]

Just been watching BBC news and the goverment are looking at letting private companies build new toll roads. which makes me wonder what the laws are on them?

my understanding is you can drive on private land a car with no tax or MOT and be under 17 and being private land there are no speed limits? is this true?

and if it is does this mean in theory the speed limits on private toll roads could be over 70mph?

[Dan]

No, not remotely. The law that governs the roads is called the Road Traffic Act, not the Publicly Owned and Funded Road Traffic Act! There are already private toll roads, the M6T being one of them (the name - M6 Toll - gives it away). They are even tighter on speeding on that than on other motorways because all they have to do is time you between toll booths. What about all the private toll bridges and tunnels? If it looks like a road, is laid out like a road and has road signs, and is open to the public, then it's a road effectively and the law applies. This can include car parks, open factory yards, loading docks, and industrial estates, anywhere that isn't gated off and marked as private. The law of the land is the law everywhere. Road tax would technically not be required, but getting to the toll road without any would be tricky!

[Ethel]

There are private roads, the issue is if they are public rights of way I think.

Could be moderately interesting though, it might be a long time since we had turnpikes but there's always been toll bridges and tunnels.

What's the TMF consensus on these new toll roads?

[Scallywag630]

There are a few issues that need addressing. 1. How will the private firm get the land to build the road? Will the Gov step in with compulsory purchase orders? 2. Who pays for the street lighting?

[giner88]

i just thought if it was private land theres no suchno motor laws, just like race tracks and disused run ways, or do they have special licenses to go fast?

Personaly i think toll roads are a joke, as if we dont pay enough road tax and fuel tax. think they said only 25% of road tax is put back into the roads. the way things are going they could build all these new toll roads but noone will be able to afford to drive

[ibrooks]

There are private roads, the issue is if they are public rights of way I think.

Doesn't even have to be a public right of way. If there is public access (whether the land owner approves or not) then you have a duty of care to anyone you might encounter so you can't endanger them by hooning around and although the road traffic act might not specifically apply it would be taken as a "reasonable" set of rules for behaviour.

To get away from this you would have to restrict access and make it clear to those that enter what they might encounter an how they can/can't behave.

It's therefore possible that if I set up a private stretch of road and I had a fence along it's length and a disclaimer when you pass through the toll-booths that makes it clear that "MY rules apply from here on and if you don't like it find another route". Then yes the speed limit might be more than 70mph. Effectively this is what a race-track is. But do you think the government would give me a license to operate on those grounds?

The way I understood it was that it wasn't so much aimed at new roads as the maintenance of existing roads. So it's road pricing under a private banner.

Iain

[Monstrous]

Another means for government to urinate all over the private car owner and price us off the roads. With fuel and insurance premiums forever rising, it won't be long.

In a fair world for every private road introduced, a proportionate reduction in road tax should be implemented for all vehicle owners, but in this world, i'm sure this will not come to light and if anything i expect road tax will increase.

On a slightly different note, if they do introduce private toll roads, they damn well better take card payment, as the ballache of remembering cash every time is enough to sell up and buy a bus pass.

Edited by Monstrous, 19 March 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[minispaniard]

basically that's what it is in France or Spain... the Highway Code still applies. private companies charge you for using them and they pay for the repairs or whatever is needed.

question is: if they go with it, will road tax go down?

[mini-luke]

Of course not!

[gazza_sidewalk]

basically that's what it is in France or Spain... the Highway Code still applies. private companies charge you for using them and they pay for the repairs or whatever is needed.

question is: if they go with it, will road tax go down?

the government reduce road tax, think we have more chance of justin beiber being shipped to the moon.

[Dan]

i just thought if it was private land theres no suchno motor laws, just like race tracks and disused run ways, or do they have special licenses to go fast?

Race tracks and runways clearly aren't roads. They don't look like roads and importantly they don't go anywhere. It has to be a route to a destination.

[giner88]

i just thought if it was private land theres no suchno motor laws, just like race tracks and disused run ways, or do they have special licenses to go fast?

Race tracks and runways clearly aren't roads. They don't look like roads and importantly they don't go anywhere. It has to be a route to a destination.

well you counted ' car parks, open factory yards, loading docks, and industrial estates' they dont look like roads and they dont go anywhere?

i just dont think its unreasonable to have private toll roads with a slightly increased speed limit. If you could drive faster it may even clear the roads of traffica little as people would be on them less time. in theory.

Edited by giner88, 19 March 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Cerberus]

Since when do indsutrial estates (and the roads in them) not look like roads??


Race tracks are different because its a race track. You can't just go to a race track and drive round whenever you like. Its a privately owned place.

Disused runways similar thing, either it gets turned into something like an industrial estate, or its privately owned, hence to drive there you'd need the land owners permission. (Then you could drive however you liked as its not public highway).


There has been talk recently of upping the national limit on m'ways up to 80mph.

[Cooperman]

i just thought if it was private land theres no suchno motor laws, just like race tracks and disused run ways, or do they have special licenses to go fast?

Race tracks and runways clearly aren't roads. They don't look like roads and importantly they don't go anywhere. It has to be a route to a destination.

Any road, car park or other location where the public have unfettered access is classed as a public road and is 'in scope' of the Road Traffic Act(s). Even, say, the private road to the rugby club is 'in scope' as members of the public could be using it legally to attend at the club for any reason. The private road to the club-house at my gliding club is 'in-scope, but not the roads/runways on the airfield as these are specifically prohibited to non-authorised vehicles who may only enter with specific prior permission.
So don't be surprised when you are 'nicked' whilst driving sideways in Tesco's car park!

[Dan]

well you counted ' car parks, open factory yards, loading docks, and industrial estates' they dont look like roads and they dont go anywhere?

I also said CAN include, but there's nothing like quoting out of context to help make a point! Also I didn't say it has to be a route for traffic, a padestrian route also makes it a road.

If it will take you somewhere (anywhere, the car park of Asda lets you get to Asda, it is a route) and there is free unhindered public access, basically if people can reasonably expect others to be driving sensibly (as in 'looks like a road'), it's a road. I don't see how this is difficult to understand. There is no more argument for a higher speed limit on a toll road than on any other similar class of publically owned road. The same bunch of idiots will be driving the same collection of variously badly maintained cars on it, in the same traffic patterns while paying the same low level of attention. I really can't understand why you would think the limit should be higher just because it's a toll road. Try driving in Europe, they have very similar rules and there are toll routes everywhere.