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Piss Poor Mpg - Stock 1275/hif44/e-Dizzy


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#1 classicoop

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:03 AM

This has only been around my 4th tank since I owned it and hasn't been run in a couple of years.

 

Stock 1275 / hif44 / electronic distributor / aircon run the whole time

New BFY needle

Compression is around 180

Runs great, one-click starting (with choke), steady idling

Good power until 4500rpm then it just falls flat on it face

 

Been doing a couple half tanks. Then did 2 full tanks to measure MPG

 

1st full tank - 21mpg = no highway / what when merging / a couple what runs to test stuff

2nd full tank - 15mpg = At around half tank, was what almost the whole time / no highway / what when merging / a couple what runs to test stuff

 

Is this normal? I mean I know proper driving would increase MPG. I've been reading people doing 30-35mpg, is that normal or the higher end of the spectrum? But then some do get 15mpg.


Edited by classicoop, 23 May 2013 - 02:06 AM.


#2 classicoop

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:26 AM

Thanks for the tip =)



#3 KernowCooper

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:31 PM

BFY is the standard needle for the 90-91 coopers but your running aircon all the time and that does increase fuel consumption, you make no mention of checking the mixture which could just require setting up, have you pulled the plugs and checked what they are reading?

 

Also how would you describe your driving on those tests, I once had a 1275 of about 95bhp on a 3.44diff and drove it really hard (almost flat out) and got 72miles on 5 gallons of fuel 12mpg



#4 classicoop

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

Mixture was set the lean-est, before rpm falls down, as per Haynes. = But I thought this had nothing to do with fuel consumption (unless idle the whole time)?

 

Haven't checked plugs yet, gona do that.

 

I would describe the tests as foot to the floor, rev til 4500 because its powerless beyond that. Maybe half the tank was consumed, overall? BUT with little braking, what > coast > what > maintain speed > brakes> what > brakes > coast. On the current tank, trying not to drive like an asshole just to see consumption.

 

This is my first carbed car. I want to compare it to modern EFI cars, but can't apples and oranges. I just find it odd that it needs this much fuel for 65bhp (or 95bhp in your case). What's AFRs do these cars run on? I guess I need to hook up a wideband (which I also find odd that nobody here seems to use, well maybe a few quiet ones)



#5 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:31 PM

Mixture was set the lean-est, before rpm falls down, as per Haynes. = But I thought this had nothing to do with fuel consumption (unless idle the whole time)?

 

Haven't checked plugs yet, gona do that.

 

I would describe the tests as foot to the floor, rev til 4500 because its powerless beyond that. Maybe half the tank was consumed, overall? BUT with little braking, what > coast > what > maintain speed > brakes> what > brakes > coast. On the current tank, trying not to drive like an asshole just to see consumption.

 

This is my first carbed car. I want to compare it to modern EFI cars, but can't apples and oranges. I just find it odd that it needs this much fuel for 65bhp (or 95bhp in your case). What's AFRs do these cars run on? I guess I need to hook up a wideband (which I also find odd that nobody here seems to use, well maybe a few quiet ones)

Yes it does on an SU.



#6 classicoop

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:34 AM

Didn't mention it earlier, but while your checking the dizzy check the vacuum advance is holding vacuum. To do this take the carb connection off, wipe it, then suck on the end of the pipe. While still sucking stick your tongue over the end of the pipe, it should stick to your tongue if the vacuum advance is ok. If it doesn't the diaphragm is split and needs replacing.........

 

Thanks again for tip. Keep em comin =)

 

 

Mixture was set the lean-est, before rpm falls down, as per Haynes. = But I thought this had nothing to do with fuel consumption (unless idle the whole time)?

Yes it does on an SU.

 

 

Mines an SU right? Gona re-check mixture. Thanks for the info =)

 

So does this mean I can adjust the fuel ratio of the whole rev range and load with the mixture adjustment? I mean if I richen the mixture, everything richens? Is this linear or more on idle/less at high load?

 

Edit: I did some quick searches, and everyone says, it's more for idling, the needle profile dictates mixture on other parts. Please explain, I'm not understanding something here.


Edited by classicoop, 24 May 2013 - 12:38 AM.


#7 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:23 AM

When you set idle mixture, you determine the position of the jet relative to the needle. The slide is sat on the throttle stop and will lift according to vacuum as the butterfly is opened and airflow increases. The needle profile will come into effect, but final mixture is also controlled by initial jet position. Set it rich or lean at idle and the effect will carry through the rev range.

Anyone who tells you that jet height is just for idle mixture is leading you up the garden path.



#8 classicoop

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:41 AM

Ahh ok. Always wondered why it only affected idle. It doesn't. Thanks =)


Edited by classicoop, 24 May 2013 - 04:41 AM.


#9 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:56 AM

No...whilst the needle profile does of course have an effect and in days gone by, maybe even now, dedicated guys would grind their own profiles....the jet position covers the starting point for mixture across the whole airflow range.

 

Find following a quick guide how to set up an SU....pretty much everywhere you go will tell you the same thing, but this one was nicely written and worth saving  - credit to the guy with the nice MGC...

SU's are a nice carb that will get you out of trouble even when wildly out of tune, they are fairly easy to tune and about the only things to watch are the float height and if the spindles are worn.

 

 

Looking down from the top of each carb, turn the adjusting nut on the underside of the HS6 clockwise to richen the mixture (jet moves down exposing a thinner part of the needle) or anticlockwise to weaken the mixture.

 

Again there are a number of ways of checking the adjustment of the mixture at tickover.   The principle used here and for all of these and the standard tuning methods is the implicit assumption that if the mixture is adjusted correctly at tickover, then it will automatically mean that the mixture is correct across the whole rev range.   This is true if the engine is standard and unmodified and using the standard recommended needles.  

 

So by way of example, using ST needles in an unmodified C engine with original air filters and adjusting the mixture to be correct at idle should mean that the mixture is correct right the way to the rev limit.   Obviously where you have made mods such as, in my case, Kent AH2 cam, K&Ns, unleaded head, fast flow exhaust, modified inlet manifold, 123 ignition, the original standard needles will not be the best needles for my set up, even if they can be made to idle nicely.

 

· The ‘By ear’ method.   Sounds imprecise but in the hands of an experienced tuner, often very close to perfect.

· ‘The method in the manuals’ – where the mixture is adjusted until the engine RPM just begins to drop.   If you did the 12 flats clockwise originally, then adjust by turning anticlockwise (weaken) until the engine speed just starts to drop.   Then turn clockwise until engine speed starts to rise, followed by one more “flat” (on the nut) clockwise.  Then, using the lift pin on the underside of the dashpot mounting flange, press up until you feel contact with the piston and then lift slightly.  

· If the engine RPM increases when the pin is lifted, and remains elevated, the mixture is rich – weaken the mixture by turning the adjusting nut anticlockwise. 

· If the engine RPM drops when the pin is lifted your mixture is too lean - richen the mixture by turning the adjusting nut clockwise.

· If the engine RPM initially raises as the pin is lifted and then settles back to the original RPM or very slightly above, the mixture is right.

·  ‘Tailpipe Emissions’ – it is possible to use emissions testing equipment to adjust the mixture.   If you have one exhaust pipe at the rear then obviously by the time the exhaust gases reach this point they will have mixed completely.   So you could have a front carb very rich and a rear carb very lean and it appear to be correct.   The way to avoid this is to keep them in sync.  Don’t turn the front carb without turning the rear carb the same amount (if you have twin tail pipes work out which one relates to which carb).   The ideal air fuel ratio is between 12.8(4.3% CO):1 and 12.1 (6.3%CO):1 but at tickover it is recommended to go leaner than this i.e. the leaner the better for the engine whilst this allows for a smooth even idle.  With only a visual test for emissions, the level of CO emissions is not important for the MOT but it is for your bank balance (wasting unburnt fuel) and the environment:

· 2.5% CO – Lower end of ‘ideal’at tickover

· 3.5% CO – Upper end of ‘ideal’ at tickover



#10 classicoop

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:30 AM

No...whilst the needle profile does of course have an effect and in days gone by, maybe even now, dedicated guys would grind their own profiles....the jet position covers the starting point for mixture across the whole airflow range.

 

 

Sorry, meant to say I agree with you. I just always wondered why a lot people say that it only affects idle.

 

Thanks for the article.



#11 classicoop

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM

Check the advance mechanism in the dizzy, these often get 'gummed' up. Take the dizzy cap off get hold of the rotor arm and see if you can turn it slightly about 20 degrees. If you can't you need to remove the dizzy, take the baseplate off so you can see the springs and weights. Now hold the drive end of the dizzy and again try to turn the rotor arm, you should see the weights inside spring out until they hit a pin. If they don't you need to clean out and re-oil the bob weights until you can make 'em hit the pin (advance stop peg).

 

Removed cap, arm moved maybe 5deg clock/counter. But I think that was the slop between arm and rotor (new arm). Removed the other half to get to internals, internals were free moving and rust free. Sprayed some white lithium and put back together.

 

Didn't mention it earlier, but while your checking the dizzy check the vacuum advance is holding vacuum. To do this take the carb connection off, wipe it, then suck on the end of the pipe. While still sucking stick your tongue over the end of the pipe, it should stick to your tongue if the vacuum advance is ok. If it doesn't the diaphragm is split and needs replacing.........

 

When the dizzy was split, checked diaphragm, it holds the thing that has 4 prongs in position just fine, til I let go of the hose hole then it returns to normal position.

 

 

This is most probably related, why does it fall flat after 4500rpm?



#12 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:37 PM

No problem, I got what you meant. No idea why people thinks it's only idle, maybe because they are used to old solex type carbs where you set the idle mixture first then mess about with the main jetting and air correction to get the running mixture.



#13 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:49 PM

 

Check the advance mechanism in the dizzy, these often get 'gummed' up. Take the dizzy cap off get hold of the rotor arm and see if you can turn it slightly about 20 degrees. If you can't you need to remove the dizzy, take the baseplate off so you can see the springs and weights. Now hold the drive end of the dizzy and again try to turn the rotor arm, you should see the weights inside spring out until they hit a pin. If they don't you need to clean out and re-oil the bob weights until you can make 'em hit the pin (advance stop peg).

 

Removed cap, arm moved maybe 5deg clock/counter. But I think that was the slop between arm and rotor (new arm). Removed the other half to get to internals, internals were free moving and rust free. Sprayed some white lithium and put back together.

 

Didn't mention it earlier, but while your checking the dizzy check the vacuum advance is holding vacuum. To do this take the carb connection off, wipe it, then suck on the end of the pipe. While still sucking stick your tongue over the end of the pipe, it should stick to your tongue if the vacuum advance is ok. If it doesn't the diaphragm is split and needs replacing.........

 

When the dizzy was split, checked diaphragm, it holds the thing that has 4 prongs in position just fine, til I let go of the hose hole then it returns to normal position.

 

 

This is most probably related, why does it fall flat after 4500rpm?

 

Running over rich with retarded timing?



#14 classicoop

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:30 AM

 

Running over rich with retarded timing?

 

 

Timing was 6deg with vac pulled. I think this is the correct spec as per Haynes.

 

If I lean it out more it starts back-firing thru carb. That means it's too lean right? And it also starts idling rough..



#15 Captain Mainwaring

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:56 AM

 

 

Running over rich with retarded timing?

 

 

Timing was 6deg with vac pulled. I think this is the correct spec as per Haynes.

 

If I lean it out more it starts back-firing thru carb. That means it's too lean right? And it also starts idling rough..

 

No, I can't see why too lean would cause backfire through carbs...timing a mile out would though. 






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