12 replies to this topic

[Cobnut383]

Hi 

I've just registered  having been lurking for a while. I've owned my Clubman Estate for 35 years having built it from the remains of a 1964 car.  All the running gear is 1964 era so it has an early Rack and steering arms.

I recently bought a complete set of parts recently to upgrade the front brakes to Cooper S discs. Having painted everything nicely, dry assembled the new parts and after making some measurements I note that the wheel mounting face is some 20mm further out than with the Drum brakes. Annoyingly, as I did check the track of the Mini Cooper before buying the parts, I have since found out that the wheels were different on the Cooper S. The car is currently on genuine 10" x 4.5 Minilites (Not Minilights) I assume that the wheels will foul the arches or be outside the body work. 

What I don't know is if I bought a couple of S variant wheels whether these will still be inside the existing bodywork arches and I'm reluctant to spend the best part of £200 for new wheels at the front just to see. I don't want to add additional external arches. 

I'm assuming the S wheels will bring the track back to pretty much where it was originally in which case maybe I can retain the existing Minilites on the rear maybe with an additional spacer. The Suspension is standard 1964.

Looking at the existing Minilites they appear to have a built in 10mm Spacer which maybe is machined off for the Cooper S. I just don't know as I don't know anyone who has Cooper S Minilites I can look at. This of course only takes 10mm of the mounting face not the 20mm I've measured.

 

The other thing I've noticed from measurement is that the position of the Track Rod end Ball joint relative to the suspension Ball Joints will be some 10mm further out than it was before and I'm not sure I have an extra 10mm available on the Steering rack.  Are there different track Rod ends?

Has anyone any ideas please. If the only solution is to buy a complete set of new wheels I'll just put the Drum brakes back on and forget about it... I'm getting too old!!

Thanks for any advice.

Denis

 

[Vipernoir]

4½" x 10" genuine Minilites will fit without arches, either disc or drum offset. 

Obviously the drum offest will poke out a little bit further, but not enough to require an arch.

[alex-95]

I would have thought the 4.5s would be fine for fitting in and not touchng the front wing/panel. Have you tried fitting them?

[sonikk4]

You can buy Cooper S replicas from Minisport which is what i have fitted to my Clubman. No arches needed and that is with 165's fitted.

 

They do shop soiled Cooper S rims which are less than half price. Just had a look on their site and could not find them but call them.

[Cobnut383]

Hi.

 

Been away for a few days.

 

So,  at post two,  sorry I don't know your name, are you saying that the 4.5" Minilites won't touch the arches at full lock and/or when under maximum suspension depression?  

When I originally fitted the Minilites I also replaced the Rubber Suspension springs but before fitting them I could check that the wheels wouldn't foul anything under full suspension or steering movement. I'm getting to old to pull it all apart again to check.

 

If I did just fit the 4.5" wheels then I'd need a 20mm Spacer on the Rears which seems a lot.

 

Thanks for the info on the Shop soiled Minilites at Minispares Neil.  I'll give them a call.  As a matter of interest do your wheels have what looks to be a 10mm spacer on the inside of the wheel?  I wonder if that is the difference between standard and Cooper S wheels.  In other words it's the same wheel casting but the spacer is machined off for the Cooper S.  I really could do with comparing the wheels.  I could easily machine off that spacer if that's what it is.  I would only need to put a 10mm spacer on the rears then.  That sounds a lot more sensible.

 

Thanks once again for the help.

 

Denis

 

[sonikk4]

The only spacers I have fitted are on the back drums. These are the standard non spacerd drums so due to the offset of the wheels without spacers being fitted they would rub against the shock absorber.

Everything at the front has been changed for 7.5" Cooper S disc setup. No spacers at all. What the difference is between the S wheels and non S wheels is the offset as well as the drilled holes and some other differences.

[62S]

If you are using a Mk 1 rack then you need the correct Mk 1 Cooper or Cooper S steering arms on your hubs.

All depending on the offset of your wheels and what tyres you are running, you might need a 1" spacer on the back.

[Cobnut383]

Thanks for the replies Neil and Super Mini Mad (SMM)!

 

Neil I understand that the Cooper S wheels have a different offset which is why I asked the question whether the S wheels have the what looks like an integral 10mm spacer machined off to bring the wheels back more or less in line.  If that was the case with a 10mm spacer at the rear then everything should be back in line albeit with wheels 10mm further out.

I'm a bit puzzled by your statement:- " ............as well as the drilled holes and some other differences." The hubs have the same PCD as the wheels so you've lost me there.

 

Thanks for the info on Steering Arms SMM .  I have BTA894 and BTA895 which are supposed to be for the Cooper S pre 1974. Certainly the track rod ends will be some 10mm further out than I expected so maybe I need a later rack..   

 

Thanks

 

Denis

 

 

[Spitz]

Buy the longer track rod ends...I think Spitfir/Midget are the same.
The S wheels are expensive ( originals ) 3.5" will work with 145 tyres ( but more expensive than the 4.5" )
The off set is indeed different, but stud holes and all are the same.  The replica ones may not have the same offset as originals...so best check.
I would also fit spacers to the rear, or spacered drums so the track front to rear is the same.

[62S]

Don't buy the longer track rod ends even though it seems to be an easy fix.

BTA 894 and 895 are Cooper and Cooper S steering arms but are not the correct steering arms for your rack if you still have the 1964 type.

If you get longer track rod ends you will be able to set the track statically, but don't. At speed through bends it will never feel 'right' as your Ackermans angle will be wrong. You really need to have a matching rack and steering arms so change one or the other to suit. It is probably cheaper to get a later rack.

[Cobnut383]

Thanks once again for the replies.

 

Right.  I am somewhat puzzled as to how a later different rack can cause a change in the Ackerman angle.  Surely all the rack does is to produce a linear motion from side to side.   As far as I know the later rack had a longer throw and enabled a tighter turning circle although if things weren't set up correctly it could lead to exceeding the maximum angle for the CV joints.  I am pretty sure that was the reason why the hole for a temporary Pin to properly centre the rack was introduced.

 

As regards the Ackerman angle surely that is defined solely by the steering arms.  From memory the angle being a line drawn somewhere about the front wheel track centre to a point mid way between the axis of the rear wheels.  The Track Rod end ball joint being somewhere along this line.  I'm not sure I like using extended track rod ends but I can't see how adding these will affect the Ackerman angle. I have the Mini Cooper S Steering Arms with supposedly the correct angle so surely that is what I need and it matters not that the early rack doesn't move from side to side as far as a later rack.  Certainly I understand that adding wheel spacers or wide wheels with incorrect offset will affect the Ackerman angle. What am I missing here?

 

I do have a new later rack sold to me by Mini Spares which I did fit some years ago but on full lock with my Old type Drum Steering arms the track rod would foul the Subframe.  I eventually got the old rack refurbished and that has been fine to date.

 

Thanks

 

Denis 

[sonikk4]

Thanks for the replies Neil and Super Mini Mad (SMM)!

 

Neil I understand that the Cooper S wheels have a different offset which is why I asked the question whether the S wheels have the what looks like an integral 10mm spacer machined off to bring the wheels back more or less in line.  If that was the case with a 10mm spacer at the rear then everything should be back in line albeit with wheels 10mm further out.

I'm a bit puzzled by your statement:- " ............as well as the drilled holes and some other differences." The hubs have the same PCD as the wheels so you've lost me there.

 

Thanks for the info on Steering Arms SMM .  I have BTA894 and BTA895 which are supposed to be for the Cooper S pre 1974. Certainly the track rod ends will be some 10mm further out than I expected so maybe I need a later rack..   

 

Thanks

 

Denis

 

 

 

The part where i mentioned the drilled holes are the difference between the standard steel wheels and the Cooper S rims.

The ones around the hub edge, nothing to do with mounting them on the car

[Cobnut383]

Thanks for the replies and apologies for not replying sooner.

 

There are clearly some unknowns with what I had planned so I've bought a new set of front wheel cylinders and will be putting things back as they were.  They've been OK for 35 years.  I'll pack all the new parts away for another time when things are clearer.

 

Thanks everyone once again.

 

Denis