49 replies to this topic

[classicoop]

What shocks do you guys use?

 

My Spax (adjustables) are bottoming out. Specially when there are rear passengers.

 

Car is tubbed.

[Cooperman]

Whilst lowered cars will never be ideal for road driving, if it is thought necessary there are shorter dampers available. These must be adjustable and set relatively hard to prevent the suspension hitting the bump stops which would make the car dangerous under road driving conditions.

[sledgehammer]

I would also like to add - a lowered car with normal dampers will stress the damper mounts

 

so something to look out for

[adam_93rio]

As has been said, you can get shorter dampers for lowered cars

Mine isn't tubbed but have shortened spax dampers all round, and the stronger lowered front mounts as well. My bump stops were becoming a pain so they were removed as hi lo's are wound all the way down

Queue argument.....

[Cooperman]

To remove the bump stops is a very unwise thing to do as there is then no final check on the suspension geometry and the ball joints can fail in extremis.

 

The problem with a lowered car is that the roads on which a classic Mini is at its best are the back roads with twists & turns rather than long straight and smooth main roads. Lowering a Mini, or any other car, will limit the available suspension travel and thus reduce the actual available performance due to the lower safe cornering speeds. A lowere3d car might look as though it will be quicker, but in fact it will be slower and less safe.

 

But, in the end, it's a personal choice. On here we are not supposed to recommend anything which is less safe, especially from the 'Mini Docs', so all we can do is state the truth and leave it to owners to make their own judgements. Best advice might be not to carry passengers in lowered cars except on ultra-smooth roads.

[adam_93rio]

I literally could've wrote that for you I've seen it so many times

[Cooperman]

I literally could've wrote that for you I've seen it so many times

So why didn't you?

We are supposed to give good and safe advice on here and that's what most of us try to do. Which is why you've seen this before from many others besides me.

What an owner decides to do on his/her own car is for them to decide, but we should not fail to give correct and accurate advice from which they can make their own decision. To do otherwise is a rather irresponsible.

Over the years I've done many things which were not 'best practice', like completing a special stage on a major rally with only 3 wheel nuts on each wheel, driving home with a pair of mole-grips fixed with a piece of wire to blank off a failed rear wheel cylinder, driving over 90 miles at night quickly with one front damper removed before I could fit a replacement. But I would never advocate doing something like that as an acceptable thing for normal use, just as driving with no bump stops on the front is not safe or acceptable. If you choose to take that risk yourself, and presumably on behalf of your passengers, then that is yours and their choice (if they know about it), but when someone asks for advice on here it is our responsibility only to advise what is safe.

Please do not post with unsafe advice in future or you risk having your post(s) deleted.

[Tamworthbay]

I literally could've wrote that for you I've seen it so many times

And still people continue with set ups that are potentially dangerous. I wonder how many more times Cooperman will have to explain why this is not a good idea.

OP- how do you know the shocks are bottoming? Are there witness marks? The reason I ask is because when you get a 'bang' or similar from the suspension it could be a range of things. Its best to be certain of the cause before you spend a load of money on lowered shocks. Having been tubbed, I would guess it would have them fitted already. The only way to tell for sure is to drop one off and measure it open and closed (or extended and compressed if you prefer).

[Fast Ivan]

What shocks do you guys use?
 
My Spax (adjustables) are bottoming out. Specially when there are rear passengers.
 
Car is tubbed.

I'm about to fit some KYB gas-a-just, though my mini isn't excessively lowered.

What you need to do is get the car on level ground and measure the distance between the pin centres on the shock mounts at the front and from pin to under the arch where the shock goes through on the back. Then you need to look at the different shocks on the market and find some that ideally have the distance you measured at the middle of the shocks travel, they are not all the same. You may not even need lowered shocks - you might just need to change to another manufacturer.

Edited by Rob Mac, 14 December 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[Cooperman]

I have no experience with KYB Gas-A-Just on Minis with track height (i.e. low) suspension, but I do wonder whether they have sufficient  damping stiffness to cope with the reduced suspension travel. If the travel is reduced by a substantial amount then the damping effort must increase accordingly. That is why racing cars are so stiff and harsh, but then they only have to go along totally smooth race tracks, not bumpy public roads, so it's not an issue.

I never really understand why some folk want very much lowered cars for the road, but as I said before, each to his/her own. Just realise what the loss of overall road performance is with a lowered car and learn to drive accordingly in order to be safe.

Personally I always set a road car to standard ride height, set the front & rear castor & camber accurately and fit adjustable dampers set not too hard, just slightly up from standard with the fronts slightly harder than the rears. Tyre pressures I set to around 30 psi. That has been found to be the best for quick-ish (in Mini terms) twisty road driving.

[Fast Ivan]

I also have no experience with them on an excessively lowered mini, I didn't really take on board the fact that we're talking about an excessively lowered car here.

I'll edit my earlier post so its more clear.

The main point I was trying to make though was that measuring is the key, so that the right length shocks can be sourced.

[Cooperman]

I also have no experience with them on an excessively lowered mini, I didn't really take on board the fact that we're talking about an excessively lowered car here.

I'll edit my earlier post so its more clear.

The main point I was trying to make though was that measuring is the key, so that the right length shocks can be sourced.

Yes, with engineering it's all about measuring and getting things to fit correctly.

Excessively lowered cars are a nightmare on public roads. Great for racing though and I've driven some great Minis on tracks in testing over the years. However, I wouldn't even consider a lowered one for the roads as they are slow enough already compared to modern cars that to make one even slower on a twisty road by lowering it is far from ideal.

But again, it's individual choice although on here we 'Mini Docs' must only give safe advice. If, for example, I was to suggest that someone should lower their Mini, cut the bump stops, fit a certain damper, etc, then they went out and killed themselves when they lost grip due to lack of suspension compliance on a bumpy and slippy corner, or when a ball-joint snapped, I would be responsible for something which it would be hard to live with.

Best advice is to set to standard ride height with accurate camber, caster and tracking and effective damping.

Of course, some cars can be lowered a bit without any danger. For example, a standard BMW 3-Series E30 can be lowered around 3 cm without any issues, maybe a bit more, as there is a lot of available suspension travel to begin with. But the Mini is very short on available suspension travel to start with even at normal ride height.

Edited by Cooperman, 14 December 2013 - 10:38 PM.

[Gremlin]

Cooperman, how did you end up only having 12 wheel nuts to share between 16 studs?

[Cooperman]

The service crew fitted a rear wheel without doing up the nuts. In the middle of a long stage the LH rear wheel came off. so we stopped, as you do, and managed with the help of some spectators to lift the car and get the spare wheel on. However, we had no spare wheel nuts in the car, so we robbed one from each of the other 3 wheels, leaving 3 on each wheel. That cost us about 5 minutes and we were away again flat out. That's rallying! Next service point we replaced the missing nuts.

The damper issue was when I had a lower damper pin fail on a stage in Hamsterley Forest. We had to drive one further test and a 90 mile road section until we could make up enough time for service. In the meantime I removed the damper to stop it clonking about under the wing. It did bounce around a bit before it was fixed.

The mole grips were used when I had a rear wheel cylinder go right at the end of a long rally. So I borrowed the Mole grips, clamped off the rear flexible to the offending cylinder, fixed the Moles to the radius arm with a piece of wire, topped up the brake fluid and drove 150 miles home at fairly normal speeds.

I've driven a Ford Mexico home from N. Wales with a lump of wood wedging the anti-roll bar and thus the track control arm in place as the TCA bracket had snapped.

I once drove an Austin-Healey 3000 from Plymouth to London in the wet with Avon radials on the front and Dunlop Gold-Seal cross plies on the back in the wet - now that was exciting. I wondered why it was oversteering a bit (well a lot actually) and got out to see if I had another puncture. Then I realised the wrong tyres had been fitted by a tyre shop after we ran out of spares, but it was raining and not a good day for jacking up a big Healey. Not my car either.

I've also finished a rally in a Mini with 3 4.5" Minilites with knobbly tyres and one 3.5" 850 wheel with a cross ply on the back. We ran out of spares and borrowed a wheel from a marshal who had an 850 with a good spare.

From these experiences you do learn a lot.

[Alex_B]

The service crew fitted a rear wheel without doing up the nuts. In the middle of a long stage the LH rear wheel came off. so we stopped, as you do, and managed with the help of some spectators to lift the car and get the spare wheel on. However, we had no spare wheel nuts in the car, so we robbed one from each of the other 3 wheels, leaving 3 on each wheel. That cost us about 5 minutes and we were away again flat out. That's rallying! Next service point we replaced the missing nuts.

The damper issue was when I had a lower damper pin fail on a stage in Hamsterley Forest. We had to drive one further test and a 90 mile road section until we could make up enough time for service. In the meantime I removed the damper to stop it clonking about under the wing. It did bounce around a bit before it was fixed.

The mole grips were used when I had a rear wheel cylinder go right at the end of a long rally. So I borrowed the Mole grips, clamped off the rear flexible to the offending cylinder, fixed the Moles to the radius arm with a piece of wire, topped up the brake fluid and drove 150 miles home at fairly normal speeds.

I've driven a Ford Mexico home from N. Wales with a lump of wood wedging the anti-roll bar and thus the track control arm in place as the TCA bracket had snapped.

I once drove an Austin-Healey 3000 from Plymouth to London in the wet with Avon radials on the front and Dunlop Gold-Seal cross plies on the back in the wet - now that was exciting. I wondered why it was oversteering a bit (well a lot actually) and got out to see if I had another puncture. Then I realised the wrong tyres had been fitted by a tyre shop after we ran out of spares, but it was raining and not a good day for jacking up a big Healey. Not my car either.

I've also finished a rally in a Mini with 3 4.5" Minilites with knobbly tyres and one 3.5" 850 wheel with a cross ply on the back. We ran out of spares and borrowed a wheel from a marshal who had an 850 with a good spare.

From these experiences you do learn a lot.

I am increasingly envious of your past when I hear these stories, sounds like brilliant fun! especially the healey, hilarious fun