26 replies to this topic

[Spaceibiza]

I really really really want a mk1 Cooper S! I've been good all year and sent a letter to Santa and everything, but I'm not holding my hopes up. Prices of Mk1 Cooper S and coopers have just gone completely out of my budget now. I've seen a lovely restored cooper up for £20,000 and you can put another 10 on top of that for an S! So a genuine Cooper S is out of the equation.

Someone I know has a pretty solid mk1 850. It's all hand painted and doesn't look very pretty, but it is solid and he only wants £1500 for it which I think is a bit of a bargain. I know some people will say it should be kept original, but that's not really my thing. I love the look of the FIA appendix K race cars. I'm thinking of buying it, then fully restoring it and building it into a replica of one of those racing mini's. Not thought about engine yet, but definitely a series. Maybe 7 port or 16v k1100, something like that. If I did a really nice job of the build, do you think people would slate me if I badged it up as a Cooper S? The way I look at it is I want to build my ultimate mini and I really don't care what it says on the V5. I want to build it and keep it for ever so I'm not bothered about re sale values or anything. So what I'm wondering is, in this kind of circumstance, do people think it's acceptable to put a Cooper S badge on or not?

[Carlos W]

To be honest, it's your car! Do whatever you want!

 

I couldn't tell the difference anyway!

[Vinmin]

Do what you want it's your car. I'm helping my son rebuild his car to resemble the white Cooper S from the italian job & that's going to have Cooper S badging although it isn't one. No way he could afford the real thing although we all want one hence the prices.

[Cooperman]

You can build a complete replica Mk.1 Cooper 'S' as there are no real differences in the basic body-shell.

The main differences are the boot board brackets and the gear lever hole in the exhaust pipe tunnel.

For an engine a pre-A+ will look OK and only a real expert will know the difference. The 'S' had twin HS2 carbs as standard, but twin H4 or HS4 are also good.

Inside you'll need a 120 (or 130) mph speedo in a centre 3-dial binnacle.

The gearbox will need to be the remote-shift type.

Trim-wise, there is black leathercloth across both upper and lower dash rails and up the inside of the A-posts. The doors have stainless steel surrounds. Seats and trim panels have the gold brocade, but this is available from Newton Commercial Ltd.

Brakes are 7.5" discs with either 3.5" or 4.5" 'S' wheels. Drive shafts are bigger (and stronger!) and the inner end of the shafts have Hardy-Spicer couplings or rubber cruciform joints.

If you build it with care no-one will know it's not a genuine 'S' and I can tell you that many of he successful Cooper & Cooper 'S's used nowadays in competition are built from 850's and the V5 simply says Mini with the engine capacity changed to 1275 cc.

There may be purists who don't agree with this, but so long as it's not done to mislead anyone there really is nothing wrong with it IMHO. It will look like an 'S', go like an 'S' and give the same pleasure of ownership that an 'S' would.

Go on, go for it, you know you want to.

[Spaceibiza]

Brilliant thanks for the replies chaps! I do really want to go for it. I think i could do a nice job of it and the key point being there Cooperman that it will give the same pleasure of ownership as an S! I'm gonna go for it i think. Wish i could keep my current Mini as well, but i only have a 1 car garage so i think i'll have to let this one go, but it will be for a good cause!

[Cooperman]

Let me know if I can help in any way. I might have an original MK.1 3-syncro 'S' gearbox somewhere in my workshop.

For the engine, try to find an 'S' EN40B crank and a set of 'S' rods as these can be made to fit in a non-'S' block and will make it even more 'as-original'.

If you do it right it will be a Cooper 'S' and would even be eligible for motor sport as an 'S'. Historic Rallying is fun!

My son & I built a 998 Cooper and turned it into a 970 Cooper 'S' and he rallied it. I did an event in it as a driver but compared to my 1293 is seemed very slow. However, it was considered a Cooper 'S' despite the V5 saying Mini Cooper and the engine size being 998. In fact at +0.020" up from 970 it was 999 cc.

No-one ever suggested that we had built a 'fake'.

[mk1coopers]

Build what you want and enjoy it, the problem with cars like this is not normally with the enthusiast that build them, it's a couple of owners down the road (despite what people say about never selling cars it often happens), when someone decideds to mis-advertise a car and sells it as more than it is, or attaches a Cooper / S log book to it. There are pointers on the Cooper shells to see if they are original, but with so many cars having been restored it's getting harder spot them. Best advice is always to do your homework and never part with your money unless you are 100% happy with what you are buying   

Edited by mk1coopers, 20 December 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[MrBounce]

I put an 850 badge on my old 1000 so you could always do the crazy engine stuff & do the same? You certainly wouldn't get anyone having a moan about it!

[Cooperman]

Yes, that is the only possible down side to building a replica.

As an engineer, a manufactured product like a car or an aeroplane is the sum of the component parts. So if a Cooper 'S' in built using all the parts as they appear in an original Cooper 'S' it will be, effectively, a Cooper 'S'.

The majority of Mk.1 Coopers and 'S's have been re-shelled, re-engined, have new sub-frames, etc, and are still regarded as original. In fact, back in the 60's it was common if a Cooper or 'S' was rolled (in competition) to buy a 2nd hand 850 with a clapped out engine and/or rusty rear sub-frame and re-build the Cooper into that. Even the 'works' competition department did that and look at the prices the cars which carry the original works registration numbers fetch these days.

Because I come from that era and was competing in Minis from 1961 I can see nothing wrong with this.  It's the 'purists' who are in the main much younger who have tended to look down on well-engineered replica Coopers. They are not illegal and are true Coopers or 'S's in all engineering aspects.

I actually know of a car which is one-owner and which started life as an 850. It was rallied as an 850, then turned into a 997 Cooper. Later it became a 1275 'S' and did international rallies with some success. It is still rallying in Historics. it has been re-shelled twice and re-engine several times. It's a 'Trigger's Broom', but is still considered as a Cooper 'S' in competition circles. 

But, to sell one with an 850 V5 carrying only the altered engine size and to claim it as a genuine original Cooper is a bit naughty - caveat emptor applies.

[Chris1992]

just like Cooperman said, there will be a few purists out there who may turn their noses up at it, but ive never really been one to stick to the rules so i say go for it!

[HarrysMini]

My '93 Cooper that I'm restoring will be sporting Morris Cooper 'S' badges. 

 

The way this car is being rebuilt is very similar to the 'S' anyway. Solid mounted subframe, 7.5" brakes, 10" wheels etc. I'm even putting a carburettor engine in it that will produce a similar amount of power and torque as the original 'S' unit. 

 

You will always get people who will throw up a huge strop if you even contemplate putting a badge from a different year on, as they all say that the car is what it says on the V5, but personally, I don't agree with that.

[greenwheels]

A lot of us had a lot of fun in the sixties doing just what you want to do - so do it.

 

Justification here http://mk1-performan...nder_7_port.htm

 

Personally I love the KAD twin cam head

[surfblue]

As above, as long as they are built for pleasure and no one is getting ripped off why not?

I'd love to do similar but my 850 is so original it would be a sin to modify it,

If I had another one tho..........

[blacktulip]

If you want an actual cooper s as a mini then do as above. As long as it doesn't bother you too much what's written on the logbook.

[Spaceibiza]

Thanks for all of your thoughts! Cooperman I might take you up on that gearbox as I'll definitely need one! I'm sure I'll be asking you about a few other things along the way too! This just confirms what I was thinking so I'm gonna go and do it. I'm going to be doing this purely for myself to keep forever, but if the need did arise in the future to sell, then I wouldn't be duping anyone into thinking it was an original S. All I need to do now is go and buy the car. Hope he'll sell it to me now!