9 replies to this topic

[sootyco]

Me again with more problems. I'm now beginning to lose heart over my 'Mini Cooper 998cc'. I would love it if someone could reassure me, or just give it to me straight! Is this normal for example, or have I been taken to the cleaners and if so what should I do now?

 

I know it's common for a 50 year old car to have been chopped about and have organs donated from several sources(isn't it?), but I'm not sure with mine what is Cooper and what isn't anymore, or even if it ever was a Cooper.

 

I have a 12G295 head, disc brakes, doors with clips for chrome trim, twin carbs and D-topped pistons..... and that's about it if I'm critically honest.... I also have a V5 with Mini Cooper on it. The V5 has the right chassis and engine numbers for a 998, but the chassis and engine tags are missing on the car. The V5 also has the wrong cc's(997). The car was supposedly registered early 1965. There are other parts that are probably Cooper such as the boot lid and severely corroded block, but I'm not sure. Then there's the gearbox, it has 22A363 on it with a remote shift, but I thought it should be 22G68 for a 998. So I Googled this and it throws up some tables people have made which state it's an old 850 OR a 997 Cooper gearbox. Yet in Parnell's bible it doesn't say this, he just says it's an early 850 gearbox, end of. Another site says you can tell what's in the gearbox by the code on the front left of the box, opposite the 22A363(but I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else). Apparently it will either be standard numbers for an 850, or a 9F number if it has Cooper 99X gears inside(mine has a number starting with 9F), the same applies to the 22G68 and others. So if that's right I probably have a 997 Cooper gearbox on a 998 block?! But is that right and why would that box be on a 998?

 

Anyway, I am now certain it has been reshelled into a 1966 standard body at some point. Probably a Deluxe because the trim was similar to Coopers and it has an ashtray on the floor tunnel in the rear. Also the dip switch and wiper motor have 12 1966 on them which is 18 months later than the reg date. So looks like a reshell, is this a crime? Also, it looks like a drunk monkey with a hammer has banged out the remote shift hole, how do I fix that?!!

 

Today I have a more serious dilemma and to be honest it's the one that's pushed me over the edge. I thought at least I had a 998 Cooper speedo. It has a 105mph dial and correct mileage(supposedly). All looked good! But now I notice the code is not Cooper either. It says SN4417/00 1376. It's not on Parnell's list for Coopers and according to the Somerford Mini site it is not a Cooper code either. Yet it goes to 105mph?? I looked at the back and it does look like someone may have tried to pry it open at some point. So has it been mashed up? If so then even the mileage is fake. Is this normal? Or is it possible a SN4417/00 may have once belonged to a 998 Cooper?? The reason this has pushed me over the edge is because it now looks deceitful and somewhat sinister. Has it been deliberately faked? Previously it was stuff you could explain away with a reshell which is common, or other changes and repairs that people make to a 50 year old car. But the speedo is a record of the cars mileage so it's forgery, plus it won't even tell the right speed anymore if it's the wrong one. If this started out as a Cooper and was reshelled then why else would someone change the speedo, they could have just swapped them over?

 

Finally, should there be a visible weld line at the top of the B-pillar where it meets the roof/cant rail, the T bit above the top seat belt fixing point? It's not particularly untidy, just odd to see visible welds on a 'factory' part of the car, or has the bloody roof been off as well? Was this bit ever welded? I'm starting to doubt everything. A photo of this area would be great if someone would oblige. I've looked on the internet and can't find any photos. If it's been patched together and basically not safe then it's going in the skip. But it may be normal.

 

So what should I do now? Should I bother restoring it as a genuine 998 Cooper? It's what I wanted to do originally but now I'm not sure it's worth it. Can it ever be a genuine Cooper now anyway? The bits that need replacing are adding up so it'll cost a fortune. Or should I give up on the originality and turn it into a tuned racer or some other thing where people are less fussy about orginality? Ultimately I wanted to sell it again, restored, after having had some fun with it first. So the route I choose has to be economical in the long run and practical. I have applied for the Heritage Certificate several weeks ago, but they are so slow, as such I haven't got it yet. To be honest I'm now worried what will be on it, or if it will come back with some further inconsistency.

 

Anyways, a long post I know. I am very deflated, but I still need to do something with it so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by sootyco, 06 June 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[sootyco]

By the way, it was off road since the early 90's with no real history, but the HPI was clean fwiw. I've made noobie mistakes I know, but hoprfully I can learn from it.

[Old Bob]

Just re-build it, drive and enjoy it and then eventually sell it 'as is''.

 

It doesn't sound as though it is totally original and the cost of restoring it to exact specification will never be justified so enjoy it while in your ownership and then let the next owner do the same.

 

Far too much worrying about what may have happened in the past.  Perhaps just a little concern also that you will never get big bucks for it without spending even more.

 

Just my opinion of course........

 

Bob

Edited by Old Bob, 06 June 2014 - 11:07 PM.

[Dr s]

Weld up by the cant rail is factory. Don't know about numbers but the people who do will be on the quite quiet early mini forum.

Nick

[Cooperman]

Don't worry too much.

A 50-year old car will have had a chequered history, but you can put it into 'as original' condition without too much trouble as it is a Mini.

Back in the 60's this originality was really not an issue, any more than originality on a 2013 BMW would be an issue today. If a gearbox failed, which was not unusual, it was easy to fine a replacement one off of a wreck or as a recon unit from a dealer.

A 1965 Cooper 998 might well have 997 on the log-book as there were no computers back then, just young clerks filling in the paperwork by hand and errors did happen. This certainly happened during the change from 997 to 998 in early '64 and even in mid-64 there were still some 997's about which appeared in dealers as 998's. I remember checking the new 998 I bought in June '64 (my goodness, that's exactly 50 years ago!).

It was also not unusual to have a later body-shell. In the event of an accident, an insurer would simply have the car re-shelled, or even to have later parts fitted. There were occasions where after a rear-end shunt, a new rear panel with the bigger window and rectangular lights were fitted to an early car by way of repair. The body-shell was, back then, just another part number in the replacement parts list.

If the gearbox has a remote gear-change unit it cannot be an 850 'box.

If the log book says it is a Cooper, then that is what it is. Re-build it as a Cooper and it will be fine. Just make sure you do it well. Have the shell checked for structural integrity and repaired as necessary.

It sounds like trhe basis of a great restoration and a 'Super Cooper'.

[dklawson]

I agree with all of the above.  Don't be upset by the unique details about your car.  Rebuild the car as you want it to be and enjoy it.

[sootyco]

Thanks so much everyone. I was having a crisis yesterday with the speedo being the latest thing and so I really appreciate the boost.

I think reading that John Parnell book is bad for your health. It gives the impression the car must be this or that or else it's rubbish. I am new to this(as you can tell) and this was my impression. Whereas you have all spoken a lot of sense! Maybe there is too much emphasis on 'total' originality when you consider how much is bound to have changed over the years. I guess as long as the fundamentals are there then the rest can be restored.

So I will restore it to it's original factory state, but with the engine needing a rebore anyway I might add a few subtle performance enhancements, just for the fun of it! Any suggestions would be great, for example are there any 'period' performance enhancements I could make(or the machine shop it's going to)?

And just to confirm, the weld at the top of the b-pillar is normal is it? I don't have another car to compare it to. What about the speedo, would it work with my car or will it need recalibrating, or replacing. It's an SN4417/00 1376. I have already scoured the internet for the right one SN4417/44 but to no avail, yet.

Anyway, thanks again. I may post some pics on the project thread when I get a chance so you can all see what I've got. Might be interesting. But I now feel a lot better.

[Cooperman]

Period modifications for a 1965 Cooper 998 could include 'S' brakes and wheels, a better cam, gas-flowed 295 head with a slightly higher comp. ratio, say around 10:1, gas-flowed carbs and cleaned up inlet manifold, altered distributor with an optimised advanced curve. That can give just over 60 bhp which is a 10% increase on standard. Use top quality flat top pistons and have the head skimmed to get the C.R. correct. A Duplex timing gear set is also worthwhile. Most important is to build it all very carefully and accurately

 

The diff ratio is best left at 3.76:1 with the Cooper ratio gearbox being ideal.

 

The 998 Cooper is a really great little car. It is friendly to drive and the 998 engine is very smooth compared to the 1275. If the engine is fully balanced during the rebuild it improves it still more.

 

Change the rubber drive shaft couplings for the Quinton-Hazell needle roller/plastic type.

 

Better dampers are good too.

 

Don't worry about the speedo. There is a company called 'Speedy Cables' who can make it as original.

 

All the correct grey/gold brocade trim is available from Newton Commercial Ltd (at a price, but it's top quality stuff).

 

Don't take too much notice of the 'total originality freaks'. They do tend to 'bang on' about the correct part numbers, but a lot of those cars were altered pretty much from new. So long as it's correct for the period that's acceptable for most Mini enthusiasts. Every 50+ year old car will have had work done to it, some to a good standard, some not so good.

 

I have a friend who bought a brand new 850 Mini in 1960 which he rallied quite successfully. Then he fitted a 997 Cooper lump with Cooper brakes and rallied that as a Mini Cooper. Later he fitted full 1275 'S' running gear and he did numerous International rallies in it as a 1275 'S'. The rebuild to full 'S' rally spec was done by a BMC Main Dealer who was sponsoring him.

At different times it had replacement engines and transmissions. It was re-shelled into a Mk.2 shell in about 1969 or 70 and the log book says it is a Mini with the engine capacity as 1275 cc. The car did loads of international & national rallies and now competes in historic rallying, as a 1275 'S'. To everyone who knows the car it is a Mini Cooper 1275 'S', although the purists will call it a fake. But then, even the works turned 997 Coopers into 1275 'S's for rallying. I navigated one, 18CRX, back in 1967. My own 1964 Cooper 'S' rally car was re-shelled into a 1966 shell when I restored it totally in 1992 as an historic rally car. But I'm an engineer and if a car is exactly to original specification and appearance, with all the correct parts, then it's what it is. If that is the case with a 998 Cooper, then that car is a 998 Cooper, no matter what the purists say about it. The arguments about classic cars, and classic aeroplanes in fact, will run and run with each having his/her own convictions about originality. Do whatever you want so long as you enjoy the finished product.

 

Sorry for the long post, but it seems you need encouragement. Let us know if we can help any further.

[pdaykin]

With respect to the speedo I would love to know if you find out more.

One of my mk1s has a speedo which had a similarly styled non-mini reference.

Never fully sure of its origins. Possibly a factory replacement ?

[sootyco]

Thanks. I read somewhere, maybe on here, that all mini bodies came off the same production line anyway. Then brackets and holes were added for Coopers. So that means they all started off as generic mini shells anyway doesn't it? As for the remote hole, is there a template or some measurements anywhere so I can recut it or get one made. I think Dr S said the b-pillar weld is factory, so I take it that's normal then and nothing to worry about?

Thanks for the advice on the performance bits Cooperman and thanks for the long post! It is encouraging. The engine is going to a local machine shop soon(proper old school one that comes highly recommended) to have the rebore so I may discuss some of these other enhancements you suggested with them then. I want to rebuild most of it myself with my dad who knows what he's doing, but bring in the pro's when needed.

As for the speedo, I'll let you know pdaykin if I manage to glean any new info. Having read up on it, it appears there are quite a few people with Mk1 Coopers who have this same speedo, despite Parnell's list. So maybe it was a factory replacement? Oh for a time machine.