Well I'm still rubbing down and rubbing-through and painting again and rubbing down and painting again. Suffice to say that I am confident of getting a very good finish with cellulose albeit with a great amount of work as expected.
The reasons for using cellulose were to get a vintage look and to be simple to spray and repair at home.
As it looks like I ma not be able to do much in the way of spraying after the rules change next year I'm wondering whether It would be better to be putting a more durable finish on the car now.
One option, which is starting to look quite attractive would be to get the last coat/coats done by a pro in a modern paint. Can anyone advise me as to whether this is a viable option? The car is currently in cellulose colour with a couple of coats on so far.
Thanks
Two pack over cellulose?
Started by
Lomcevac
, Jun 25 2006 08:23 PM
10 replies to this topic
#2
cooper_shaz
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Posted 27 June 2006 - 10:49 AM
Hellooooooooooooooooooooo 
The regulations are basically covering 2k more than cellulose, so you would still be able to get it for a good few years to come..
1 litre will put 2 coats on a mini so you could pick up a couple litres when funds allow and store them, it does not go off so no issues.
If I am understanding you correctly are you thinking,
get your paint on and flatted back
then get a bodyshop to paint the last couple coats for you in 2k.. ie no re-priming
just the finishing coats ?
If this is the case Having the last few coats sprayed by a pro in 2k is going to undo all your efforts in building up the colour.
As your cellulose is pretty new there is a very high chance that it will react with 2k, the solvents evapourate for months after it is sprayed
So to prevent this you would have to spray the lot with barcoat which is a yellow primer colour and then
build up the colour in 2k.
You can get away with painting over cellulose that is pretty old (A couple years) but even that is risky.. because all the prep work can easily be undone with 1 reaction.
A cellulose finish is still good side by side with 2k, the 2k is better interms of durability but Cellulose in good in its own right.. a couple polishes a year will keep it in top notch condition. Regular polishing can actually give you a better shine than 2k..
hope this helps an danswers your question...
Cheers
shaz
The regulations are basically covering 2k more than cellulose, so you would still be able to get it for a good few years to come..
1 litre will put 2 coats on a mini so you could pick up a couple litres when funds allow and store them, it does not go off so no issues.
If I am understanding you correctly are you thinking,
get your paint on and flatted back
then get a bodyshop to paint the last couple coats for you in 2k.. ie no re-priming
just the finishing coats ?
If this is the case Having the last few coats sprayed by a pro in 2k is going to undo all your efforts in building up the colour.
As your cellulose is pretty new there is a very high chance that it will react with 2k, the solvents evapourate for months after it is sprayed
So to prevent this you would have to spray the lot with barcoat which is a yellow primer colour and then
build up the colour in 2k.
You can get away with painting over cellulose that is pretty old (A couple years) but even that is risky.. because all the prep work can easily be undone with 1 reaction.
A cellulose finish is still good side by side with 2k, the 2k is better interms of durability but Cellulose in good in its own right.. a couple polishes a year will keep it in top notch condition. Regular polishing can actually give you a better shine than 2k..
hope this helps an danswers your question...
Cheers
shaz
#3
Baldspeed Racing
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Posted 27 June 2006 - 12:01 PM
nice one shaz, this has given me a bit more info for when I do my car. I am highly thinking of the cellulose route for costing and ease of spraying puls saving my lungs.
One question if you dont mind is that I have sprayed my fibre glass front with 2k primer which is a cream colour would I be able to shoot cellulose straight over it ok?
Cheers
Rich
One question if you dont mind is that I have sprayed my fibre glass front with 2k primer which is a cream colour would I be able to shoot cellulose straight over it ok?
Cheers
Rich
#4
cooper_shaz
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Posted 27 June 2006 - 12:51 PM
Yip Cellulose will spray over the primer.
2k primer is actually better that celly primer as it does not sink into filler etc.
2k primer is actually better that celly primer as it does not sink into filler etc.
#5
Baldspeed Racing
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Posted 27 June 2006 - 12:56 PM
Cheers buddy. Good to know, if thats the case then I will probably spray the car in 2k primer then celly for the top coats. Ive got some of the primer left over from the front end but I think its more suited for painting fibreglass then metal which is a shame. Oh well, best get myself down the paintshop again.
Ta again for the reply
Ta again for the reply
#6
Lomcevac
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Mini Mad
Posted 28 June 2006 - 03:46 PM
Shanks Shaz
That's what I needed to know. If there are possible issues with 2 pack I will stick wiith celly I think. I might still look to a pro to do the final coats as I can only get my best results with a 400ml gravity gun and only have a small compressor.
Cheers
That's what I needed to know. If there are possible issues with 2 pack I will stick wiith celly I think. I might still look to a pro to do the final coats as I can only get my best results with a 400ml gravity gun and only have a small compressor.
Cheers
#7
midridge2
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 12:36 PM
when i worked in bodyshops it was allways my understanding that 2k was designed to go over celly with no problems, the idea being that 2k would replace celly so why would they make a new paint that would react when sprayed over celly?
celly cannot be sprayed over 2k unless its been on the car for a couple of years and can still react.
i have worked with loads of painters and sprayed many cars myself and have never yet seen a reaction with 2k painted over celly, i have only ever had to use barcoat (isolator) twice in 35 years and that was because the paint was synthetic used on fibreglass wings.
celly cannot be sprayed over 2k unless its been on the car for a couple of years and can still react.
i have worked with loads of painters and sprayed many cars myself and have never yet seen a reaction with 2k painted over celly, i have only ever had to use barcoat (isolator) twice in 35 years and that was because the paint was synthetic used on fibreglass wings.
#8
cooper_shaz
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 07:43 AM
As your cellulose is pretty new there is a very high chance that it will react with 2k, the solvents evapourate for months after it is sprayed
You can get away with painting over cellulose that is pretty old (A couple years) but even that is risky.. because all the prep work can easily be undone with 1 reaction.
As I said above, you can spray over older paint, but given that most minis have been touched up here and there over time, I personally would not bother with risking a reaction.
Most of the guys on the forum are spraying at home at novice to intermediate level.
What we are talking about here is painting over fresh cellulose sprayed at home, the advice offered here is just that, ADVICE.. most of the folk here are working for months on their cars with limited time and limited budget.
The advice I offered above covers possibilities of what could happen, I would not want to jepordise someone hard work and investment by offering ill advice, I did not say you can not spray over it, I said there is a chance of reaction.
Alot of times advice given here is taken as gospel, so the advice I give is given with caution and an explanation of what COULD occur.
There are so many different scenarios that it is impossible to cover them on a forum in a couple paragraphs, so the advice is always on the cautious side, in the interest of the person asking the questions.
#9
midridge2
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:35 PM
shaz i see were you are coming from and agree with what you say but i get so annoyed that it it not made clear that what is given is advice and not gospel.
i some times post on other mini forums and time after time i read posts were one person replies and the original poster from his replies believes that what he/she is told is correct, eg is some on telling them to flat the paint work down with 80 grit paper working there way through to 1500 grit paper before they spray primer on.
i think a lot of the problems are caused by people giving advice (taken as gospel) who have no experiance of working in the motor trade but who have heard there mates talking or who watch tv shows about cars and suddenly they talk like experts, remember 2k paint took over from celly 30 years ago and how many people who post on forums used celly on a day to day basis.
i think in a lot of cases joe bloggs asks about his mini having some rust spots and wants to make their car look a bit better but cannot afford the stupid high prices that garages charge now to replace panels and respray it so the advice he is given is to cut the panels off and weld new panels in and do there own spray work, great if you know how to cut the panels off, attach new panels correctly and have welding gear and the knowledge to use it and how to prepare the panels for painting and have a compressor and spray gun and know how to use them.
the advice joe bloggs is given in alot of cases is how you would prepare and spray a body to concours condition as that is what the so called expert has seen done on tv or heard there mates talking about, when i worked in the body trade even in high class garages doing first class insurance repairs using celly each coat of paint was not rubbed down between coats, after being sprayed the next day the car was buffed and waxed and went to the panel beater to be fit up and given back to the customer within a couple of days of being painted, none of this advice saying leave it for a couple of months before buffing it up.
how many times have i seen on the forums people giving advice about replacing new panels and painting them but very little is said about protecting the back of the panels as in most cases that is were the rust starts from.
all joe bloggs wants to hear is grind down the rust, knock the rusted area in and put some body filler in and rub it down and prime it up and spray it with a rattle can and clean up the back of the rusted area and paint hammerite on and brush some underseal over it and it will last as long as it takes him to save up and have a new panel fitted.
remember if rust starts to come through and you cut out the rusted area and weld in new metal and spray the panel in the rest of the panel is older than the new metal and is going to rust through so you would weld in another new patch and paint the panel again so for a cheap repair untill you can afford a new panel to be fitted just do as said above.
irrespective of what paint is on a car you can get a reaction so does that mean you should spray isolator on before you start priming up, remember that you can still get a reaction on the primer when you start to spray you top coats on,
in most cases if you are going to get a reaction you should see it as soon as you start to spray the colour on so stop and inspect it and decide what has caused the reaction and if need be then spray isolator on and reprime.
sorry to waffle on but because i look on other mini forums and see so much bad advice given i get angry.
i some times post on other mini forums and time after time i read posts were one person replies and the original poster from his replies believes that what he/she is told is correct, eg is some on telling them to flat the paint work down with 80 grit paper working there way through to 1500 grit paper before they spray primer on.
i think a lot of the problems are caused by people giving advice (taken as gospel) who have no experiance of working in the motor trade but who have heard there mates talking or who watch tv shows about cars and suddenly they talk like experts, remember 2k paint took over from celly 30 years ago and how many people who post on forums used celly on a day to day basis.
i think in a lot of cases joe bloggs asks about his mini having some rust spots and wants to make their car look a bit better but cannot afford the stupid high prices that garages charge now to replace panels and respray it so the advice he is given is to cut the panels off and weld new panels in and do there own spray work, great if you know how to cut the panels off, attach new panels correctly and have welding gear and the knowledge to use it and how to prepare the panels for painting and have a compressor and spray gun and know how to use them.
the advice joe bloggs is given in alot of cases is how you would prepare and spray a body to concours condition as that is what the so called expert has seen done on tv or heard there mates talking about, when i worked in the body trade even in high class garages doing first class insurance repairs using celly each coat of paint was not rubbed down between coats, after being sprayed the next day the car was buffed and waxed and went to the panel beater to be fit up and given back to the customer within a couple of days of being painted, none of this advice saying leave it for a couple of months before buffing it up.
how many times have i seen on the forums people giving advice about replacing new panels and painting them but very little is said about protecting the back of the panels as in most cases that is were the rust starts from.
all joe bloggs wants to hear is grind down the rust, knock the rusted area in and put some body filler in and rub it down and prime it up and spray it with a rattle can and clean up the back of the rusted area and paint hammerite on and brush some underseal over it and it will last as long as it takes him to save up and have a new panel fitted.
remember if rust starts to come through and you cut out the rusted area and weld in new metal and spray the panel in the rest of the panel is older than the new metal and is going to rust through so you would weld in another new patch and paint the panel again so for a cheap repair untill you can afford a new panel to be fitted just do as said above.
irrespective of what paint is on a car you can get a reaction so does that mean you should spray isolator on before you start priming up, remember that you can still get a reaction on the primer when you start to spray you top coats on,
in most cases if you are going to get a reaction you should see it as soon as you start to spray the colour on so stop and inspect it and decide what has caused the reaction and if need be then spray isolator on and reprime.
sorry to waffle on but because i look on other mini forums and see so much bad advice given i get angry.
#10
cooper_shaz
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:57 PM
midridge2 I do agree with you in what you say...
I absolutely respect and welcome what you say and the more points that are made here the better informed the readers are.
But as you know the forum is just that, a place for Advice, and alot of it does come in the form of I have heard this and that.
The diffuculty is that expressing something to a novice on a forum who has heard this and that, you dont know 100% what repairs etc have been made and although it is 1 individual asking the question you have to open up the answer because many others read it and act upon it if it sounds correct (even though their situation may be different)
What could be explained in a 10 minute conversation and a 5 min demonstration takes alot of explanation and re-writing on a forum. And at the end of the day Experience is everything.
I have been in this game a while too although not as long as yourself you have the age advantage .
Only a decade for myself, but I was taught old school, Start with a flat piece of steel, sandbags,
forming battons, dolly and planishing hammers, panel fabrication and lead loading ahh the good old days..
I restore the J40 pedal cars you see below in my avitar as a hobby but have a couple lads who are really into doing up their cars and it is a great teaching ground, but a little bit of missing information can make it all go wrong.
As you say cutting out rust and repairing/replacing panels can be done by anyone, but done correctly by few,
but how do you tell someone how to cut off a panel correctly on a forum?
It is difficult but we can only try..
cheers
Shaz
I absolutely respect and welcome what you say and the more points that are made here the better informed the readers are.
But as you know the forum is just that, a place for Advice, and alot of it does come in the form of I have heard this and that.
The diffuculty is that expressing something to a novice on a forum who has heard this and that, you dont know 100% what repairs etc have been made and although it is 1 individual asking the question you have to open up the answer because many others read it and act upon it if it sounds correct (even though their situation may be different)
What could be explained in a 10 minute conversation and a 5 min demonstration takes alot of explanation and re-writing on a forum. And at the end of the day Experience is everything.
I have been in this game a while too although not as long as yourself
you have the age advantage .Only a decade for myself, but I was taught old school, Start with a flat piece of steel, sandbags,
forming battons, dolly and planishing hammers, panel fabrication and lead loading ahh the good old days..
I restore the J40 pedal cars you see below in my avitar as a hobby but have a couple lads who are really into doing up their cars and it is a great teaching ground, but a little bit of missing information can make it all go wrong.
As you say cutting out rust and repairing/replacing panels can be done by anyone, but done correctly by few,
but how do you tell someone how to cut off a panel correctly on a forum?
It is difficult but we can only try..
cheers
Shaz
#11
Lomcevac
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Mini Mad
Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:12 PM
All above read with interest.
As my car has been down to bare/new metal all round I was indeed talking about fresh cellulose as a base. I've had the fun and games of paint reactions in the past when doing less major jobs and was keen to be completely safe this time.
As it is i put three more coats of celly on yesterday and that is hopefully it. I am off to Canada for three weeks on Sunday so when I get back I will get polishing.
regards
Ad
As my car has been down to bare/new metal all round I was indeed talking about fresh cellulose as a base. I've had the fun and games of paint reactions in the past when doing less major jobs and was keen to be completely safe this time.
As it is i put three more coats of celly on yesterday and that is hopefully it. I am off to Canada for three weeks on Sunday so when I get back I will get polishing.
regards
Ad
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