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Haynes Manual Steering Me Into Confusion.


Best Answer mickthefitter , 05 May 2015 - 08:48 AM

I know what you are saying but regardless of whether the track rod ends are threaded equally onto the track rods or not, having had my steering column out and my steering wheel off, it was up to me where on all the splines I put everything back. I built it up by-the-book because it seemed like the sensible thing to do. Because of where the indicator cancelling stud now falls (dictated by the manual's insistence on putting the rack pinch bolt hole in the horizontal plane) that now seems not so sensible.

For all that I've read here and there about unequal track rod lengths being bad and the cause of tyre scrubbing on lock, which is probably true, did you know that Mk1 VW Polos only had one adjustable track rod that passed in front of the bulkhead? The other side was a fixed length. The proper way of realigning your steering wheel was to take it off and put it back on the splines in a new position! Later VWs may well be the same. German engineering, eh? Plus most of the tyre places I used in the 80s only ever tweaked one track rod (Fossit and Thorne was the first one I used, who buggered up my Marina) which is why I ended up buying some Gunsons tracking gauges that strapped to the wheels with bungee cords. All the tracking data is way out of date now though, and most car tyres are too fat to take them!

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#1 mickthefitter

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 11:09 PM

I've replaced my steering column bushes today. Well, one of them. 

 

Late last year I had my Mk2 Hornet (aka Mk1 Mini-ish) steering wheel refinished. I had useful help here in getting the little beggar off, as it didn't want to shift. Subsequently I decided that before the shiny steering wheel was torqued back up, I needed to change the column bushes as there was some play, though it had always passed the MoT. In fact, I bought the column  bushes, nylon for the top, felt for the bottom, same year as I bought my car, 2011, and never used them. Well, they've been used now. Well, one of them. 

 

The job is done. Finished. But there are (or were) issues. 

 

1st - End float in the column, something I feared I might have caused by banging at the steering wheel to get it off, turned out to be the clamp at the lower end of the inner column not gripping the splines on the rack. The pinch bolt was tight, but the clamp not compressed enough to grip the splines. This is a familiar tale to me now on this car. It makes me wonder how many other bolts and fasteners that I've not yet discovered, aren't done up tight enough. 

 

2nd - I couldn't use the Mini Spares supplied felt pad. It was mega thick. GSV 1127. The new nylon upper bush was a tight-ish fit, but that's because it isn't worn. Try as I might, I couldn't tempt the new oil-soaked felt pad to go into the outer tube, when wrapped around the inner column. In fact I couldn't even get the tapered ends to meet up around the inner column, the felt seemed so thick. I had real fears if I managed to force it in, I might lose my steering self-centering action! I looked at the old felt pad that had come out, and it SEEMED to be made thinner to me, not just worn. I re-soaked it in oil and put that back to see what it looked like. Put it this way, the bottom end of the inner column isn't waving about. So I only used one new bush and put GSV 1127 in the bin. 

 

3rd - and this is what I really need a spot of advice with, though as I said, the job is done. The Haynes manual states, on refitting the column assembly, that on right hand drive cars, the axis of the pinch bolt on the clamp on the inner column must be parallel to the rack, below the column, and the indicator stalk should be fitted at 20 degrees to the horizontal. 

 

Attached File  File3.jpg   38.94K   5 downloads

Attached File  File4.jpg   30.61K   3 downloads

 

So I did all this. Originally when I took the column out, the pinch bolt axis was at about 45 degrees with the wheels straight ahead, but then hey, lots of things aren't put back right on old cars. Including this one. 

 

So I did it by the book, and clamped the inner column up with the pinch bolt horizontal.  Then started puzzling about this 20 degree business of the indicator stalk - which naturally I'd not noticed when I took the thing off. To get that angle, the whole column tube, shrouds and everything have to be skewed - surely it wasn't like that before? I looked at some old pictures of my interior - and it didn't look skewed. Anyway I put it back how I thought it should be, not by the book this time, plopped my 'new' steering wheel on and loosely did up the nut, and risked a little drive to see if I'd got it on the wrong splines. I was just one spline out, so I corrected that. BUT....with the stalk where I thought it should be, i.e. horizontal when centered, if I indicated right, the little green bulb on the end was eclipsed by the steering wheel spoke and couldn't be seen when driving straight. 

 

So back home, I torqued the steering wheel nut to the 'by the book' 45Nm (boy, that took some doing, unless my torque wrench is losing its accuracy) then skewed the outer column so the stalk was now at about 20 degrees to the horizontal when switched off. 

 

Fine. Lovely. I can see the bulb now when turning right, even if when turning left, it seems more like I'm using a column-change than an indicator stalk! 

 

But here is what bugs me. I had to take the shroud off again - solving rattles and so on - and I noticed this. With the inner steering column now where it is, in the straight ahead position, with the pinch bolt horizontal, the little self-cancelling stud is positioned at 3 o'clock behind the steering wheel. With the indicator stalk at 20 degrees up from the horizontal, the self cancelling stud is bang in line with the lower pawl on the indicator stalk! My indicators have never self canceled - well, they do in one direction about three times every 100 miles. And having had things to bits, I now know why. There is a missing spring on the pawls. One is there, but there should be two. So everything is a bit too floppy and my indicators do not self cancel. BUT IF THEY DID - I now think I wouldn't be able to indicate right with the steering wheel dead-ahead because the self cancelling stud would act on the pawl immediately it was operated. 

 

And the point I'm making is, if I'd have put the steering column back with the pinch bolt at 45 degrees, the self canceling stud would have probably been roughly in the right place to fall between the two pawls on the indicator switch, with the switch set at 20 degrees to the horizontal! 

 

So...has the Haynes book got it wrong? The same diagram I've shown is in the '69 - '89 manual, though I was using the '59 - '69 which clearly states 'Mk1 Mini'. 

 

Now I've torqued down my shiny steering wheel so it won't come off for another 50 years (yeah, the nut was loose when I first had my horn push off over a year ago, to look for a fault with that) I don't really want to disturb anything if I find a spring one day to try to make my indicators self-cancel. But I really do NOT understand the logic of the Haynes manual instructions, now that I've followed them and finished the job. It looks to me like on right hand drive cars the pinch bolt should NOT be parallel to the rack, because the stud that knocks off the indicators is basically on the same axis, while the indicator switch is supposed to fitted on an inclined axis, which brings the knock-off pawl in line with the stud. It isn't logical, Captain. 


Edited by mickthefitter, 04 May 2015 - 11:18 PM.


#2 cambiker71

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 04:34 AM

They're not known as the Haynes book of lies for no reason! :D
Take it apart, fit it back together so everything works or is in the right place for everything to work.
Ignore the HBOL.

#3 ChopperHarris

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 06:58 AM

I may have misunderstood but, back to basics......

Doesn't the shaft to rack bolt only pass through the cutout on the splines in one position?

The shaft shroud ony goes on with the mounting holes for the plastic cover in a horizontal orientation?

The switchgear has a plastic key on its inner circumference that dictates its position?

 

You cant do wrong?



#4 mickthefitter

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:13 AM

I think you might be thinking of later models with the steering lock. Regarding the rack splines, no there's an undercut the entire circumference of the splines. The bolt shaft will go in anywhere so long as the clamp bolt hole is in line with the undercut. The Mk1 steering column shroud, plus indicator stalk, can be at any angle within reason depending on where you choose to clamp up the outer steering column tube using the under dash bracket. In a way that's why I didn't see my little dilemma coming till I'd already 'permanently' torqued down my newly refinished steering wheel, which wasn't cheap to get done. (It was pretty horrible before, with no paint left on the rim and always felt grubby). Not sure which 'key' you mean on the shroud but that may well be a feature of steering lock models. If so, my ignition key is where your washer pump button is likely to be!

With regard to 'doing it again', apart from not wanting to damage the epoxy finish on my wheel by having to break it off the taper again, I spent most of yesterday (in nice weather) on my knees and my knees can't take it again for a while! I think it is a case of leaving things as they are until or unless it becomes an issue. If I ever get the self cancelling function back and it does become an issue, I might just get used to not being able to see the winking green light when I turn right! Thanks for the assurance though that Haynes is the 'book of LIES'! I always thought they were the best compared to Autodata or whatever. Still, I once did have a 1.3 Maestro that needed the exhaust manifold gasket changing and in the book it said the whole manifold and carb needed to come off. I gave it to my Rover dealer and they said they managed to slip a new gasket in having only removed the stud nuts and slackened the downpipe clamp. I also once needed to change an instrument panel light, and the book said the steering wheel needed to come off. It was a bit of a fiddle but I managed to get the dial cluster free and turn it enough to do the job while working through the wheel.


Edited by mickthefitter, 05 May 2015 - 10:40 AM.


#5 BritishRacingGreen

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:22 AM

With regards to the difference in angle it sounds like your tie rods have been done up unevenly? So that the rack would be in a different location with the wheels straight. Measure the length between the rack body and the locking but on each side to see.

I don't know about the earlier cars but my 77 only has one place the pinch bolt can go in the splines, which makes lining the rest up pretty easy.

#6 mickthefitter

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:48 AM   Best Answer

I know what you are saying but regardless of whether the track rod ends are threaded equally onto the track rods or not, having had my steering column out and my steering wheel off, it was up to me where on all the splines I put everything back. I built it up by-the-book because it seemed like the sensible thing to do. Because of where the indicator cancelling stud now falls (dictated by the manual's insistence on putting the rack pinch bolt hole in the horizontal plane) that now seems not so sensible.

For all that I've read here and there about unequal track rod lengths being bad and the cause of tyre scrubbing on lock, which is probably true, did you know that Mk1 VW Polos only had one adjustable track rod that passed in front of the bulkhead? The other side was a fixed length. The proper way of realigning your steering wheel was to take it off and put it back on the splines in a new position! Later VWs may well be the same. German engineering, eh? Plus most of the tyre places I used in the 80s only ever tweaked one track rod (Fossit and Thorne was the first one I used, who buggered up my Marina) which is why I ended up buying some Gunsons tracking gauges that strapped to the wheels with bungee cords. All the tracking data is way out of date now though, and most car tyres are too fat to take them!


Edited by mickthefitter, 05 May 2015 - 10:37 AM.


#7 ChopperHarris

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:21 PM

sorry Mick, was referring to later models

#8 ChopperHarris

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:25 PM

I cannot see any reason to orientate the pinch bolt in any direction other than what suits your self cancelling best.

#9 mickthefitter

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:15 PM

I cannot see any reason to orientate the pinch bolt in any direction other than what suits your self cancelling best.

Yeah I know. Now. O_O Thing was, while I was putting it back together, installing the column, putting my steering wheel back on, trying to weigh up why 'the book' said set the indicator stalk to an angle of 20 degrees (which means turning the outer column)...I didn't foresee the self cancelling stud being in line with one of the stalk self cancelling pawls. It's slightly crystal ball stuff, or, learning from experience so I'd never make that same mistake again. But I'd never removed a steering column before to replace the bushes, so I thought following the Haynes manual would be fool proof. When the column wouldn't slot back in quite as easily as it came out, I even followed the book to loosen the steering rack 'U' bolts and the bolts holding the outer column bracket under the dash, neither of which I wanted to do. It didn't help. My rack would not move 'side to side' as the book suggested, no doubt held in place by paint or dirt, and loosening the under dash bracket didn't help any either, with locating the lower end of the inner column on the splines. The female column spline went over the first stage of the rack male spline okay, but got hung up on that fully circular undercut for the pinch bolt. Loosening everything off was 'supposed' to assist in lining things up, but the top of the dash bracket bolts were covered in glued down vinyl, which I didn't want to disturb, and I plain just didn't fancy loosening my steering rack when I could see no reason why anything else should have moved since taking out the column for refurbishment. In the end I put the steering wheel nut back onto the top of the column threads, and gently tapped it with a hammer, and the inner column went over the remaining splines without much trouble. I think it came off easier before refurb because of the play in the upper bush. Fortunately I was able to tighten up the rack and dash bracket without much trouble (the bolts on the dash bracket turned a bit while I was tightening the nuts but then bit into the metal and stopped) but that particular exercise recommended by the Haynes manual proved a waste of effort. For Mk2 Minis onwards there's even an extra procedure described that involves loosening the rack and taking a rubber bung out of the floor, and using a drill (6mm I think) inserted into a hole in the floor or bulkhead, into a hole in the rack, as an alignment tool. But why oh why would that be necessary if the rack were lined up when you took the column out? I think basically in some cases they use extracts of a procedure for a complete stripdown of one part in the description of the procedure to repair another part, but the previous text goes into unnecessary detail. 

 

My only objection to doing the job all over again, right now, to get things lined up how they appear they should be, rather than how the book has told me to do it, is, apart from my achy knees, risking damage to that refinished steering wheel that is now firmly back on the taper seat, and I've had a few steering wheels off in the past and that Mk1 Mini wheel was the hardest I've ever dealt with. Ones I've taken off before (Morris Marina, the aforementioned VW Polo, Ford Cortina MkV) have jumped off with a pat on the back of the spokes  :proud:


Edited by mickthefitter, 05 May 2015 - 01:20 PM.


#10 ChopperHarris

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 07:47 PM

nods in sympathy

Have you got a puller?

Or I get a mate to sit in the car pulling on the wheel equally while I strike the partially undone nut with a copper mallet



#11 mickthefitter

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:11 PM

Well looky here. Well I never. When I was putting my own car together and started having a minor crisis regarding the destructions to set the indicator stalk to 20 degrees from  the horizontal (which then put the lower switch pawl near the 3 o'clock-positioned cancelling stud) I referenced the odd photo of my own car to see what it was like before. The pictures I had didn't make it look crystal clear, but it looked like the switch had previously been horizontal when off. Haynes says set at 20 degrees, and their guide to putting the column back says make the clamp pinch bolt horizontal, which puts the cancelling stud at 3 o'clock, da-de-da, hence my reason for posting in the first place. When I drove the car with the switch horizontal, if I turned right, I couldn't see the green light behind the steering wheel spoke so I assumed Haynes must be right about the 20 degrees. 

 

Look at these images from when I Googled 'Mk1 Mini interior'. 

 

Attached File  1960 Austin Mini Mk1 Van Interior.JPG   87.6K   5 downloads

 

Attached File  1960-Morris-Mini-Interior.jpg   63.29K   2 downloads

 

Attached File  1967_Austin_Mini_Cooper_S_Mk1_Interior_1.jpg   96.17K   1 downloads

 

Attached File  Mini interior 1.jpg   104.84K   2 downloads

 

Attached File  Mini interior 2.jpg   34.4K   2 downloads

 

Attached File  Morris_Mini_interior_1959.jpg   78.79K   4 downloads

 

Attached File  not_updated.jpg   51.62K   2 downloads

 

 

It looks like all of these cars have the indicator stalk and steering column cowl set in the horizontal axis, even the squeaky clean left hand drive car in the black and white picture, brand new right down to the polythene on the driver's seat and paper tag hanging from the ignition key. On image number five you can just about make out (or so I think) the lower steering column clamp, and while the steering wheel isn't perfectly aligned straight, it looks to me like the pinch bolt axis is nearly horizontal, so close to how I put mine back. 

 

So all I can conclude from this is that basically the steering column itself on my car is installed correctly (phew!) and that Haynes is talking b#####ks when they suggest tilting the indicator stalk to 20 degrees, because it looks like BMC didn't make them that way, which means when you pull the stalk down (regardless of whether the car is left hand drive or right hand drive) the winking green light MUST be out of sight behind the steering wheel spoke while the wheel is straight! 

 

Well, Issigonis never was much of one for good ergonomics!  :lol:

 

Mick

 

 

 



#12 minstix

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Posted 28 June 2022 - 12:22 PM

Hi Mick,

 

I've come to this thread a few years late but I'm just going through the same issues with positioning my steering column on my MK2 Cooper S. I've been following the same Haynes manual 20 confusion. Did you ever get this resolved?

 

One thing that may be different with me is that if the clamp on the bottom of the steering column is horizontal, then the indicatoer canceling stud is at about 2 oclock not 3 oclock (horizontal). Which kind of ties up with this 20 degree thing the Haynes manual talks about.

 

I also didn't take notice or pictures of what it was like before I dismanteled it a couple of yesrs ago. Another lesson learnt.

 

Steve



#13 Spider

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Posted 28 June 2022 - 06:38 PM

Hi Mick,

 

I've come to this thread a few years late but I'm just going through the same issues with positioning my steering column on my MK2 Cooper S. I've been following the same Haynes manual 20 confusion. Did you ever get this resolved?

 

One thing that may be different with me is that if the clamp on the bottom of the steering column is horizontal, then the indicatoer canceling stud is at about 2 oclock not 3 oclock (horizontal). Which kind of ties up with this 20 degree thing the Haynes manual talks about.

 

I also didn't take notice or pictures of what it was like before I dismanteled it a couple of yesrs ago. Another lesson learnt.

 

Steve

 

There's a lot in this very old thread to read.

Rather than going over all that, can I suggest starting at the start here or even starting another thread, perhaps including a link if you like back to this thread.

ALSO, be sure to include important information like is your car Left or Right Hand Drive as it makes a huge difference.



#14 timmy850

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Posted 28 June 2022 - 11:52 PM

I’ve recently fixed mine as the self cancelling wasn’t working

RHD
Pinch bolt horizontal
Line the column up so the cancelling peg is aligned with the centre of the indicator unit (both in the in/out axis and the rotational axis)
Test drive to make sure the cancelling works in both directions




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