19 replies to this topic

[Haynes]

Looking at Demon tweeks, overalls and a helmet for Hillclimbing are going to set me back £300 a piece.

 

Are there any cheaper sources for compliant gear?

 

Also, do overalls go out of date?  I have a pair that are about 15 years old.

 

Overalls:

FIA 8856-2000

FIA 1986 Standard

 

Helmets:

FIA 8860-2004. FIA 8860-2010. SNELL SA2010. SNELL SA2005. SNELL SA2000*. SNELL SA2010. SNELL SAH2010. SFI Foundation 31.1A,

31.2A. BS 6658 Type A/FR**.

(*May be withdrawn with effect from 01/01/15. **May be withdrawn with effect from 01/01/16.)

Edited by Haynes, 05 May 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[keefr22]

We got our helmets from;

http://www.plays-koo...-Helmets-1.html

Very comfortable, good fit using their guide & seem well made.

Racesuits we got from Peter Lloyd rallying as he's local & was considerably cheaper at the time, but his prices now seem to be on a par with tweeks.

Don't forget you also MUST wear fireproof gloves in hillclimbing/sprinting (we also got those from Plays kool, & fireproof boots are a good idea, although not mandatory (yet, at least!)

Keith

[Haynes]

Dug out my old overalls.

 

The label says:

 

FIA

NORME 1986 / 1986 STANDARD

05.286.CSAI.96

 

So it seems they are up to standard?

[keefr22]

Certainly sounds like, the Blue Book Hillclimbing/sprinting section says;

"Overalls homologated to either FIA 8856-2000 or FIA 1986 standard are mandatory."

& that seems to be what the label on yours says.

If it were me, I'd either check the Blue Book for a local scrutineer & give them a ring, or ring or e-mail the MSA technical section just to confirm. I've always found all of those people to be really helpful.

Keith

[rally1380]

The thing with safety gear.....don't moan too much about the price as one day it might save your life.  I admit, spending upwards of £600 on a lid and a romper suit might seem a bit steep, but you've probably spent a whole lot more on the bag of bolts you'll be throwing up the hillclimb so only seems fair to spend accordingly on safety gear so when your bag of bolts does go wrong* and eject you into the nearest barrier the marshals can drag you out and fingers crossed the nomex has done its job.

 

*note how I say its the cars fault....us drivers never make mistakes

[keefr22]

That's a valid argument Dave - my counter one is that if the 'cheaper' stuff has to pass the same standards & is well made & comfortable then it will do exactly the same job. And anything is better than the safety gear road rally crews have to wear....  !!

There's usually an annual 'which helmet' thread on the Uphill Racers forum - & the Play Skool ones often seem come out as a favourite with users - many people with much more expensive lids can often be found complaining about how the chin strap has started to wear, or bits of the lining are coming loose, or they're more uncomfortable than the cheapie one they've just replaced, etc., etc.

And probably at the end of the day they're all made in the same Chinese factory anyway...!!

All down to personal choice really....

keith

[beakerthemuppet2]

I got mine 2nd hand from a guy I service for in stage rallies. They had some great gear and it was useless as it was out of date for them. For hillclimbs and sprints you don’t need to have in date gear, providing it produced with one of the approved standards and is in good condition (though the standards can run out, I know my helmet is not valid next year… can’t remember what standard it is though)

 

All the information as to whats permitted is in the MSA bluebook under section “K” whioch can be downloaded off the web somewhere.

 

One thing that is worth mentioning is that the MSA seems to be pushing for neck support devices (like HANS) across the board in motorsport. It’s already mandatory for a lot of race series and I think all international stuff. But there’s an awful lot of noise about it coming in for other disciplines and national stuff in 2016/17.

 

I can’t see it coming into hill-climbing, particularly if you’re in a road going class as it would be pointless having a HANS device when you don’t even have a full harness on.

But it may be worth paying an extra couple of quid for a HANS compatible helmet just so you don’t have to fork out again in a few years’ time, or if you fancy switching disciplines.

[rally1380]

That's a valid argument Dave - my counter one is that if the 'cheaper' stuff has to pass the same standards & is well made & comfortable then it will do exactly the same job. And anything is better than the safety gear road rally crews have to wear....  !!

There's usually an annual 'which helmet' thread on the Uphill Racers forum - & the Play Skool ones often seem come out as a favourite with users - many people with much more expensive lids can often be found complaining about how the chin strap has started to wear, or bits of the lining are coming loose, or they're more uncomfortable than the cheapie one they've just replaced, etc., etc.

And probably at the end of the day they're all made in the same Chinese factory anyway...!!

All down to personal choice really....

keith

 

My point wasn't about making sure you buy the best or most expensive....just that safety gear in its very nature costs a bit....even the bottom end stuff

 

£300 for a helmet seems about right really (for a decent FIA approved one) and they can go for a fair amount more.  Romper suits usually start around the £200 mark (or at least they used to) but again pointless buying a cheapo one if it doesn't fit.

 

You are right they all have to conform to the correct standards so helmet A costing £200 should be the same as helmet B costing £800....but we know that is not the case.

 

I got my helmet second hand from a well known internet auction site and is still like new. It is still a current model and has HANS posts....only bought it to do a few track days....then I realised they are for big girls and have since had it inspected by a MSA scrute and got it stickered up....did my first stage rally last summer with it. 

 

I would say this though....be super careful about buying second hand helmets. There are fakes around and also ones that have been mistreated and dropped!!! These are not good buys!!!!

[keefr22]

£300 for a helmet seems about right really (for a decent FIA approved one) and they can go for a fair amount more.

Our Playskool ones cost half that when we bought them. My son still has the Sparco he had when he started (that he can no longer use as it doesn't have the FR (Fire Resistant) suffix on the standards number. Fire Resistant open face helmets? What plonker came up with that regulation...??). It cost him rather more than the Playskool & is in no way better made, and has a much worse chin strap design.

Best advice I ever read on helmets was to make sure they fit properly & are comfortable. And don't put them to the test...!!

Personally I'd never buy any safety stuff, either for myself or the car, secondhand. You never know what might have happened to it.

keith

[beakerthemuppet2]

I agree in part with the concerns about second hand safety gear but most of the stuff I use is second hand all from people I know and trust that they would have told me if they had had a significant accident with any of it.

 

The other thing is that I bet most people are like me and aren’t running on a big budget so if I bought a seat new then I would almost certainly buy a “budget” seat, your £250-300 mark sort of stuff.

 

But if I can get my hands on a four year old seat or overalls that was from the very top of the range, so long as it fit me and I have confidence that it hasn’t been abused, then I’d pick that every time because its likely better quality and better developed.

[rally1380]

I agree in part with the concerns about second hand safety gear but most of the stuff I use is second hand all from people I know and trust that they would have told me if they had had a significant accident with any of it.

 

The other thing is that I bet most people are like me and aren’t running on a big budget so if I bought a seat new then I would almost certainly buy a “budget” seat, your £250-300 mark sort of stuff.

 

But if I can get my hands on a four year old seat or overalls that was from the very top of the range, so long as it fit me and I have confidence that it hasn’t been abused, then I’d pick that every time because its likely better quality and better developed.

 

I agree with him ^^^^

[keefr22]

I agree with possibly buying secondhand off people I know & trust. E-bay? Never in a million years...!!

[rally1380]

There are honest people on ebay selling honest products....you just need to have a keen eye to filter out all the not so genuine dudes.

 

My helmet is a Bell Sport 5, was never used and I got it for a fraction of the cost of a new one (£300+). Yes I was chancing it whether it would fit or not, but my melon is clearly a large so I thought i'd risk it for what I paid.  A helmet to rent at a track day is about £50 so figured i'd actually pay for the helmet with just 2 uses......a few years down the line and it is still looking like new, is within current specs and is HANS ready for when the MSA throw a wobbler (again).

[Helldriver]

That's a valid argument Dave - my counter one is that if the 'cheaper' stuff has to pass the same standards & is well made & comfortable then it will do exactly the same job. And anything is better than the safety gear road rally crews have to wear....  !!

There's usually an annual 'which helmet' thread on the Uphill Racers forum - & the Play Skool ones often seem come out as a favourite with users - many people with much more expensive lids can often be found complaining about how the chin strap has started to wear, or bits of the lining are coming loose, or they're more uncomfortable than the cheapie one they've just replaced, etc., etc.
And probably at the end of the day they're all made in the same Chinese factory anyway...!!
All down to personal choice really....
keith

I don't agree with this. I used a long time also bottom end safety gear stuff and thought the same. Then when doing mini challenge I got my safety stuff of top end quality sponsored and experienced since then significant differences: all is much lighter, breathes very well so you sweat much less (concentrating is much easier, especially in summer and 1 hour or more stints), wear is much less and just fits right. The expensive helmet has a much lower weight, neck muscles are much less stressed but I needed to try more then 20 helmet to find a proper fitting one. That cannot be done online.
Regarding HANS, there is a lot money making fia **** going on but HANS is 2nd important safety feature after a perfect fitted safety belt. I always wear it even when not mandatory and the costs for it compared to what it protects even in a minor crash, is a no brainier.the crashes I have seen 2 would be in a wheel chair for sure without HANS.
I am also on budget but this is setup cost and if you cannot afford this racing is nothing for you. Top end stuff second hand from a source you know is a good way to save money but no bottom end stuff used, good materials cost money even in China.

[keefr22]

I don't agree with this. I used a long time also bottom end safety gear stuff and thought the same. Then when doing mini challenge I got my safety stuff of top end quality sponsored and experienced since then significant differences: all is much lighter, breathes very well so you sweat much less (concentrating is much easier, especially in summer and 1 hour or more stints),

That's all well & good - but this thread is about helmets & overalls for hillclimbing - where you're lucky to get a one minute stint...!!!

And I'll continue to maintain my argument - if a £100 helmet passes the same independent safety tests as a £1000 one, it should do exactly the same job. OK it may be slightly heavier (not the case comparing my son's no longer usable Sparco & now current Plays kool lids), you may sweat slightly more (can't say I've noticed), it may have slightly better materials - but they're really not major considerations in hillclimbing!

Keith