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Third Party Engine Start & Ignition Toggle Switch - Wiring Help


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#1 Bradshaw-s

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:13 AM

Hi Guys,

Bought a 3rd party momentary push start with ignition toggle switch.

I am removing the ignition barrel from column totally & placing a key ignition barrel (for security only - :-D ) on the dash board - similar to MK1 & Mk2.

 

Can anyone help me with the wiring of this configuration as I am confused mainly by the relay pin outs etc....

The ignition barrel is a standard Lucas type & not included on the photographs

 

Also the standard toggle switch (accessory) is not going to be used at all as all the switches will be removed from the carbon effect plate & mounted separately.

Its only the Red Toggle, Engine Start Switch & Lucas ignition barrel to be used.

 

Regards

Si

Attached Files


Edited by Bradshaw-s, 16 June 2015 - 07:15 AM.


#2 gazza82

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:26 AM

Is there a wiring diagram for the new panel?

Also you might be able to leave the existing switch alone ... it's the locking part you probably just need but might be easier to just move wires.


Edited by gazza82, 16 June 2015 - 10:27 AM.


#3 Carlos W

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:34 AM

Is there a wiring diagram for the new panel?

Also you might be able to leave the existing switch alone ... it's the locking part you probably just need but might be easier to just mive wires.

 

This was mentioned by Dan the other day, the possibility of having the engine running with the steering column locked is very dangerous



#4 ChopperHarris

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:14 AM

I must be getting old....why add more things to go wrong, when all the functions are achieved by the existing set up?

#5 Icey

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 12:06 PM

I tend to agree with ChopperHarris - you're replacing one 3(4)-pole switch with, what, four separate switches? (Three on the panel and then the additional keyed switch).

 

But that aside. First recommendation - DON'T HACK THE LOOM. See if you can buy the right plug and make a replacement loom section. If you can't then buy an old ignition switch from eBay and snip the tail off. At least that way if you want to go back to a standard setup you just have to unplug that panel and plug in an original barrel.

 

You need to get the wiring diagram out and work out which wire on the ignition barrel relates to which stage of the switch. For example (from memory so I could be wrong) white/red is the starter trigger so you'd wire that to your push-button. I can't remember the others off the top of my head but that's the kind of thing you need to map out.



#6 Bradshaw-s

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 02:31 PM

Hi Guys,

Just to clarify - the reason I am changing the ignition barrel switch is because I broke it - so decided to make the steering column a minimalist design - so removed steering lock - down to bare metal & clear coat - have fabricated a small cowel rat rod style out of rusty steel plate to cover the stalks....no steering lock now so no safety issues.

 

I live in Malta & the car only goes out in the sun - garaged all the time - so wanted to modify the car in my own way - rather than buy another ignition switch I thought a rally style switch would look cool with the mods I have already done - 

At present I have just a very crude 'hot wire' way of starting the car - hidden & effective - just unplug from the harness when I leave the car.

 

BUT obviously not pretty or effective long term- I do not have a wiring diagram with the new relay or switches hence this post!

 

The engine start switch requires a relay because of the currents involved - just need to know how to wire this set up thats all!

 

Regards

Si



#7 gazza82

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 04:08 PM

The basic idea of a relay is to take the higher amperage through the switch connection and the smaller amperage through the coil. (I hope that's the right way around!)

 

When you activate the coil (usually power from a switch through to earth) it closes the internal switch to allow the higher amp power through .. in this case to the solenoid on the starter (or remote).

 

So you would need to wire up the toggle switch to be the first setting on the ignition to power up the main systems and fuses, and the button to activate the solenoid ...

 

That sounds right ... might need to scribble down a schematic ...



#8 Bradshaw-s

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 04:34 PM

Thanks Gazza - OK just need to know the pinouts on the relay - 4 point - 85, 87, 86 & 30 which goes where?

 

Brown - Live

White - Ignition Live

Red/White - To Starter Solenoid (A+)

Green/White - Ignition Live to accessory



#9 zerobelow

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 04:43 PM

I usually like to have an "accessory" switch in the picture. Makes the car work more simply. Disclaimer for my post: I haven't done mini electrics before. My mini marcos, I made my own custom wiring harness that doesn't follow factory spec. 

 

I would use the accessory switch to feed the relay. There will be a largeish wire out of the ign switch already. This turns on the gauges, dashboard, lets the turn signals work, etc. Look online for a standard wiring diagram for this. 

 

Have the relay feed one side of each start and run switch. Then run the other side of the start switch to the start solenoid. The other side of the ign switch to the ign coil. Note that in this configuration, you can forget to turn on the ignition while cranking the engine. If your car uses a ballast resistor, then it will power the ignition and start briefly and die assoon as you get off the starter. To make it more natural, use the panel/aux switch to feed the relay, use that to feed the car aux + ign switch input, and use the ign output to feed the ign coil and the start switch input. 


Edited by zerobelow, 16 June 2015 - 04:48 PM.


#10 zerobelow

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 04:46 PM

Thanks Gazza - OK just need to know the pinouts on the relay - 4 point - 85, 87, 86 & 30 which goes where?

 

Brown - Live

White - Ignition Live

Red/White - To Starter Solenoid (A+)

Green/White - Ignition Live to accessory

Do a web search for "relay wiring diagram". It will bring up tons of stuff. Posting this from my phone, so it's a pain to post the links :). 



#11 Bradshaw-s

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 04:57 PM

Thats a great help thank you - have looked at relay wiring online - still a bit confusing for me as can't get my head around it yet!

Just need a complete idiots guide to wire the relay - paint by numbers so to speak lol!

 

What terminal on the relay gets attached to which wire - sorry for being totally useless!

Si


Edited by Bradshaw-s, 16 June 2015 - 04:58 PM.


#12 zerobelow

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 04:58 PM

Run brown to relay 30 and to top side of the acc switch. To do this easily, add a ring terminal to the brown wire, and run it to the top side of the acc switch. Also, put a ring terminal on the wire that comes out of relay 30, and run that also to the top of the acc switch.

 

Run 85 to a chassis ground. Doesn't need to be big, this is just switching the relay coil. Use a barrel connector to connect the relay harness 85 to a preferrably black wire, and then run that to the chassis. If you make a new hole in the sheet metal, make sure to scrape some paint so that the wire terminal can contact bare metal for a good connection.

 

Run 86 to the bottom side of the acc switch. Put a ring terminal on the wire from the relay.

 

Run 87 to green/white and to the top of the ignition switch. Ring terminal on relay 87 and also ring terminal on green/white, and land both on the top of the ign switch.

 

Run the bottom side of the ign switch to white and to top side of start.  ring terminal on white. create a small jumper piece of wire, with ring terminals on each end. land white and one end of the jumper on bottom of ign switch. Land other end of jumper on the start switch. NOTE: I can't tell from the picture what type of connection the start switch wants. It may not need any sort of terminal, it looks like you may be able to just run a wire in and catch it with the set screw.

 

Run the bottom side of start to red/white. 

 

Remember my note, I haven't done mini stock wiring, so am depending on the colors and purposes you listed above. 

 

Also, when putting in switches, remember to make sure bare metal from the contacts doesn't touch any other metal including dash and other switches. 

 

Do all this with the battery disconnected (you always disconnect it by unhooking the ground, - side on a negative ground car). As i understand, the mini didn't use a lot of fuses, so a small wiring mishap can create big problems. 

 

Update: Added a few hints to the line items above. Basically, the wires that need to be spliced, since they also need to be landed on the switch terminals, it's a good idea to just put a ring terminal on those wires, and use the switch terminal screw to do the splice -- less room for a splice to pull out. Also, I noticed from your picture above: one of the switches doesn't have the two small screws that retains the ring terminals. I can't tell from the picture, but if that one isn't designed to work with screws, then you will need to use "female blade terminals" instead of "ring terminals" on that switch. If that one is threaded for screws, then you will need to find the screws.


Edited by zerobelow, 16 June 2015 - 08:04 PM.


#13 Bradshaw-s

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 05:11 PM

Brilliant!!!!

Thankyou so much - just what i needed - have taken on board all your advice & will be tackling this job next weekend :o)

Will update this thread when completed.

Thankyou again!

Si



#14 zerobelow

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:55 PM

Also, remember that you will need to be crimping on your own wire terminals to complete these connections. It looks like you will need ring terminals for the switches, and some barrel connectors for the other ones.

 

Your brands are different on your side of the sea, so I can't speak to the quality of these, but here are some examples of what you'll need.

 

A wire terminals kit. Here's a cheapo one. These are "vinyl single crimp terminals".

http://www.amazon.co...=wire terminals

 

And a crimp tool.

http://www.amazon.co...wire crimp tool

 

 

Those two above are the cheaper version, but should suffice.

 

I much prefer to use nylon double crimp terminals and an appropriate ratcheting tool.

The double crimp ratchet tool:

http://www.amazon.co...uble crimp tool

 

And I am unable to quickly find the nylon double crimp terminals on the UK amazon. But from the US one, you would want:

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B000PLZGUS

and

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B000NI1H88

 

And depending on the wire size for the bigger wires, you might also need the blue (16-14gauge) versions of those.

 

I have done many hundreds of crimps with the double crimp ratchet tool linked above, and also with the ancor wire terminals linked below, and had only a couple bad crimps (immediately obvious) and no failures over time. I've used them in my endurance race cars, my 4x4 vans, and also in my Mini Marcos that I'm still in the middle of building. A few weeks ago, I completely rewired the Mini Marcos, making my own new harnesses, with over a hundred wire crimps, and no failures.






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